PTC.
All I can add is my great-grandfather spent about 10 years in Guymon, OK from about 1900-1910. He told Dad a lot about it. What he said is what others have already said, about how straight and flat the area is. Pop Pop said you could see when the train left the station the next town over. You could look down the line and see more smoke come out when the train left the station.
I read the link article to the Guymon newspaper. If the witness is entirely accurate it raises some questions I’m sure will be addressed by the investigation. The large differential in speeds right before the collision. It’s also known that eyewitnesses aren’t the most reliable. Isn’t the time from start to final report around a year?
I feel for the families. There are still jobs that can be dangerous in the normal course of the job. My family lost someone due to an industrial accident. Next time you go by a construction site note the orange vests and water trucks to keep the dust down. Those weren’t used over 50 years ago.
Track and grade profile for the Pratt Subdivision. Not gauranteed to be 100% up to date.
http://www.fogchart.com/Down/Beta/PRATT.pdf
Jeff
Oh, there’s gonna be a lot more questions than answers before the embers die out on this. The surviving conductor is going to be key in explanation. If it is as flat and straight as all say, both crews are going to bear the blame somehow or another.
One thing about the ‘long distance’ sight lines that have been mentioned.
Yes, you can see there is a train opposing you, however, trying to estimate where that headlight is in relation to sidings and/or absolute signals is a whole nother kettle of fish. Depth perception in such circumstance is very difficult, if not nearly impossible to perceive accurately. When you are running on signal indications - a clear signal means maximum track speed. Over the past years, with the increased length and weight of trains, the carriers have been lengthening the distance between intermediate signals to allow for adequate braking distance with the large heavy trains. Spacing is now routinely 3 to 4 miles between signals.
[quote user=“mudchicken”]
Discouraging. That country is a virtual milk-run with some undulation. J. A. Noble is looking down with tears from above.
Ah yes muddy friend, Mr. Noble surveyed this area more than 100 years ago. I knew him in his last years as CE of the Western Lines. He and " Dolly’ Shafer were two from the early days that I got to know. I worked with Dolly on the N M Division and hed was a very competent character a transitman.
Per MSNBC.COM, three crewmen are missing, conductor from one is unhurt. Here is the link with a picture: http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/24/12385183-two-trains-collide-in-oklahoma-3-crewmembers-missing?lite
[quote user=“diningcar”]
I was told many times Mr. Noble retired to a ranch down in that area near a lake. I never saw a body of water any larger than a puddle in that country. (J A Noble to everybody else put the Cimarron Valley, Manter and Boise City Districts on the map between 1913 and 1936. His influence was felt by generations of Santa Fe employees and his book wasn’t half bad either. )
68 MPH? In that heat? Need to check that against the TT (regardless what the track chart says)
Per the MSN article http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/24/12385183-two-trains-collide-in-oklahoma-3-crewmembers-missing?lite the UP is advising that the collision happened about 2 miles east of Goodwell. The track chart shows a 9000 foot siding at Goodwell. The next passing siding to the east is about 20 miles away. Just a guess on my part, but I would think that in the circumstances the dispatcher would set the meet for Goodwell, with the eastbound intermodal being allowed to hold the main to minimize the delay on the eastward movement of that train.
The eyewitness claimed that the westbound train was slowing down, but the east bound was still near track speed (70 per the chart). Even if the eyewitness was wrong about the actual speeds, he could be correct that the westbound was moving slower. According to the chart the spacing on the block signals are about two miles. It appears entriely possible that the last signal seen by the westbound was just an approach to reduce the speed in preparation for the next signal governing the diversion into the siding. That assumes that they are past the approach signal at the time the eastbound blows past the switch and positive stop signal at the east end of the Goodwell siding. At that point, the westbound has seen no restricted signal and there is nothing that could appear on the dispatchers screen to indicate an abnormal condition.
Makes sense, though the eastbound would need to slow to 40 if it were going through a turnout, not maintain the 70 track speed, unless the westbound ran several miles after splitting the switch.
I wonder if back in the era of steam it was easier to see other trains just by spotting their smoke?
Apparently, as seppburg2 has reported, the only survivor is the crewman from the Westbound (autoracks?) and the missing include the two crewmen on the Eastbound ‘Stacker’ as well as one ( the engineer?) of the crew on the Westbound. At least that was the report from a TV station here in Wichita (KAKE).
Whatever the circumstances are, regardless one has to have sympathies and prayers for the families of the missing crewmen.
Highly appropriate in these circumstance is Mudchicken’s signature line :
“…Mudchicken: Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME…”
EDIT TO ADD: While out walking this morning we saw what I would guess is a re-route from UP; on the EB BNSF T-con. A single UP engine on the head end, and two UP engines on DPU and many,many cans lettered for Pacer & Pacer Stack Train and quite a few CSX containers ( I think Pacer is a UP Customer?). It was about 0940 CDT when it came through here, between (Wellington and Mulvane).it appeared to be about 40/50 cars?). Don’t know what direction they’ll go out of Mulvane, whether through Wichita or Augusta to get to Topeka or what point they’ll get back on UP.
My thoughts and prayers to all families involved in this…
So driving along side a stretch of track makes you an expert on what should have happened? You post something like this and have the nerve to call someone else brain dead…
People can speculate all day long but unless you were there you dont know what happened. I’d rather see the report when it all comes out.
GR Why when the Conductor saw the Other train coming at him then he NOT pull the Emergancy handle right by him and stop there is an Eyewitness that said BOTH trains were moving at Speed. Think about that. I also know enough that when you see something coming at you at High speed from dealing with Drunks on the INTERSTATES of this nation that are going the Wrong way at me that you DO NOT keep going you Stop and CLEAR OUT OF THE WAY.
The Terrian here is Flat the Tracks are Straight as an ARROW they had to have seen the Other Train coming at them Common Sense says STOP and get out of the cab to save your life if possible. But then again have you ever thrown your truck across the road to stop a Drunk from taking out a School Bus full of Kids coming back from a field Trip I DID in 99 put him into my Trailer Tandems and Stopped a guy with a BAC of .3 from hitting a Bus that was full of kids and maybe killing some of them. He lived and is now doing time. The things you see at 0230 in the morning in and around the Triad region of NC. Found out the Kids were on their way back from Disneyland to Philly they had 3 drivers to spilt the driving up on the way home.
So before passing Judgement on me remember this GR I have seen more out there that can Never be Explained Done more that saved lives have Multiple Familes that still send me Chirstmas Cards because I saved their Lives out there and if I ever make it back to Philly can get all the Free Cheese Steaks I want from any Place I want because of what I did that night.
I saved a family in WY one night from Freezing to death to this day they still send me a Chirstmas Card a Nurse in NV does the same because I was the Last person that Ever Spoke with her son and stayed with him til he DIED after he wrecked his Sports bike. 2 more Families in OH as I was their guide thru a Massive Lake Effect storm on I-90 one night til we got to a safe
I said earlier there are lots and lots of questions and few answers…especially now. We can wag and hypothocate and inject whatever but be nowhere near the answer(s) or spot on. But our speculation and theorizing and banter is nothing and means nothing.l UP, NTSB, and other authorities will work our the answers and the blame and what has to be done to prevent. Our argueing and name calling has nothing to do with what happened.
Flat may be a relative term. The tracks are generally on an ascent westbound, with some valleys where I would guess they cross rivers. Looking at the chart at about MP 482, which is about 1 3/4 miles (hard to be exact, could be a bit more or less) east of the east switch of Goodwell, there is a slight rise. Is it enough to momentarily hide a headlight? I don’t know. We’ll have to wait for the report.
Jeff
BaltACD mentioned sight-lines, distance, and relationships. Quite a good observation. Yes, signals can tell the story, depending on what was seen or not seen in the field. False clears? Yeah, they happen as Zug has said. Heat distortion? And how many of you guys were told to hold the main instead of the siding? Too many unresolved circumstances to even begin to speculate.
Also Zug, your spot on about the rule books now a days. The Law Department has far more say-so over them than Operating guys. Are you still pointing at switches??? lol
On this incident, I will wait for FRA, NTSB, UP to conclude gathering evidence. (hard evidence like event recorders and cameras - something one other mode of transport does not have, but should).
Yet, you have no problem passing judgement on the dispatcher or train crews.
It’s no wonder most of the railroaders left this board. This crap is getting old.