At the moment I don’t have AC & Heat in my train building, what will happen to my layout??
I have a wood frame metal covered 11 X 18 tight built outbuilding, carpeted, plenty of electric outlets and three circut breakers. What suggestions do you all have for heating and AC?
I have heard of window units that can heat and AC (I have two small windows), but are these type of units safe to keep running, to keep the temp correct all year long?
A train building??? How lucky can one get? I have a folding switching yard layout located in my garage. We live in Northeastern Alabama and you can imagine how hot the summers can get (the winters aren’t exactly shorts weather either). My garage isn’t heated nor air conditioned and I have had no problems to date. Occasionally I have to pick up the odd piece of scenery but that is all. I think one of the reasons, for my success, is that I use only matte medium and not white glue. Matte medium remains quite flexible after it dries and will expand/contract with the changes in temperature/humidity. The only track problem I have encountered is with the (numerous) Walthers turnouts the layout has. Most of these problems have been solved with fine grade sandpaper between the stock and point rails and the use of contact cleaner. No buckling of rails, no pulling loose of track due to ambient conditions have been observed in the 3 years of operation. The effect of temperture/humidity on the operator is another story…
There are many factors to consider…probably too many. For example, the fashion of construction, the materials, how tight tolerances and fasteners are in places. As stated earlier, the biggest problem with materials that are not metal is the expansion and contraction due to humidity. Metals will respond to temperature. After reading many many posts over the past two and a bit years, I have accepted that your rails, if spaced here and there by nearly 1/16", are unlikely to encounter problems due to temperature unless you have swings in excess of 30 deg Celsius. Far more problematic is swings in humidity in the order of 40%. If you use wood and construct the layout bench and top during periods where the humidity hovers near 60%, and then go over a muggy summer where the room stays near 90% for a week or more, you can expect cracking and splitting against washers used to keep things tight in wood, buckling and warping. That means that your tracks will suffer in some ways
Similarly, the opposite is true. If you build during high humidity, and then dry out your benchwork with a dehumidifier or a decent AC, you can expect wobbles when the wood shrinks and track sections to pull away from each other. Oddly, depending on the orientation of the track to wood, and how it is all held together, the tracks may actually buckle from being drawn together as the wood shrinks!
Bottom line…if you want to put your money on a safe and cheap insurance, season the wood in a humidity-controlled place, and then keep that ambient humidity (15% on either side) year round after you erect the layout.
We have a 20 x 40 foot HO scale layout in a buidling with no heat or air conditioning except when someone is at the clubhouse, and other than personal comfort this has been no problem.
We use a propane space heater in the wintertime and there are evaporative coolers used in the summer.
If a layout is built out of the right types of materials, drastic changes in temperature and humidity are not a real concern. Our layout is built on hollow-core doors with two layers of sound board on top. Expansion and contraction of your benchwork will present more problems than you will encounter with the track, because wood is more unstable than metal.
Carl,All three clubs I am a member of has neither AC or 24 hour heat in the winter.We have suffered NO weather damage…I am talking about Ohio’s’ weather where it can change from 40s to bitter cold in the winter and from the cool of the morning into the 90s by noon in the summer.
There are window AC units that have heat strips and dehumidifiers built in. Had one in a small double wide mobil in Florida and it ran almost all the time. Ones that will do a 20’x20’ room start at about $600 but I believe they all require 220v.
Hey RRmedic, I’d look around garage sales and get an A/C now and later get a little heater or when one shows up. I’d also just cut a hole in the wall probably as high as is practical and install it there. Why use up a good window. If its high it won’t interefere with your layout. Also if you put in a heater make sure its vented to the outside otherwise you’ll get moisture problems inside. Maintain about 69o in winter and 80deg. in summeer and you’ll be alright. My A/C for my shop cost $50 and its in its 2nd season. we can get 110 deg. summers here. and 15o winters. Otherwise its not a real big deal.
It gets HOT here in sunny Scottsdale, AZ so I have purchased 3 Fedders 8000 BTU window units. They come with a remote control, so I am having my handyman next door neighbor cut three windows near the garage ceiling for them. He will also fur out the wall, install fibreglas insulation, drywall, texture and paint it. He will also install batts from HD on the garage door.
I got a quote from an AC outfit and they recommended a Mitsubishi unit which was designed for this use so you might look into it. I believe it is a heat pump that can maintain pretty uniform temperature and humidity conditions year round. It was little too expensive for me so I went with the window units.
I had an attic layout in Langhorne, PA where it gets pretty hot in summer and cold in the winter and I never had any problems except some shorts at rail gaps which I fixed wtih a sliver of plastic to keep them apart.
I guess it depends on WHERE you live, it might be a different story if you live in Fargo, N.D. or in a swamp in Georgia, otherwise you may be very hot or very cold, it’s all up to you.
For you in NC humidity is the real problem. Mostly I would be concerned about mold build up and wood rot from the hot, humid days, and cooler humid nights causing a lot of dew problems. A window unit, sized correctly for the volume of space can be left running 24/7, set it on the energy saver mode and let it run.
I plan on a very similar set up for my attic space (which currently is unfinished). The heat/ac duties will be done with a window unit only. I’ve seen this done many times with great success so I know it will work for me.
hows the wife feel about the layout in an out building? im getting ready to start a layout, but the basement is all mine, however, i think an out building would work better (no center posts in the way). see, the wife sees it as “i’m still in the house”, even though im in the basement. i guess she like the secure feeling that im “still here”. she says shes ok with the out building, but i know that it will go from good trains that keep him home to those damned trains that keep him out in that building…
Do not build your layout on plywood, and really, really don’t build it on particle board. Build it on 2-inch pink or blue extruded styrofoam. 1-inch in a pinch, if your position relative to the Mason-Dixon line means that Home Depot doesn’t stock the stuff. Try to get them to order you a few sheets, though. It’s worth the wait to have the thickness, because it will span 18-inch benchwork with no complaints.
You’re in North Carolina. Heating isn’t too big an issue, but cooling and humidity are problems. Foam insulation as a layout base won’t expand or contract much with the temperature, and won’t absorb and give off moisture with changes in humidity. Most issues with heat and humidity warping track isn’t the track at all, but rather the base it’s layed on.
AC? I’ve got 4 Panasonic through-the-wall units. I love them. Quiet, reliable, and the new ones even come with remotes. Don’t clog up your windows. Punch a hole through the wall, and do it right. All of mine, by the way, are 120-volt, and were the largest made for 120 at the time. But, do put them on a separate circuit. The startup surge will knock your DCC system off-line.
I’ve got an 8 X 12 office in an out building that I’m using as a train room right now that I use a small window unit in when it’s warm and a space heater when it’s cold. So far so good.
Thanks everyone for the great help and suggestions. It appears since I am in NC, the humidity will be my worst enemy. Looks like it is time to go out and compare and do some pricing.
Thanks again for this forum and the great minds who keep it going…
Hey Ryan, to answer your question…yes, I have already been hearing the phrase “Those damned trains”, to no avail, I keep on working…really gets to her, but the trains, like me, well, just something she will have to deal with! LOL…cant keep a good man down! enjoy
Could you elaborate on the actual construction of your building? The methods of finishing/ insulating the interior walls and ceiling will depend on this.
Is the siding vertical steel? What is the roofing material?
Is the wood frame on a concrete slab? Are walls standard 2x4 frame and 16" o.c. as well as roof type (assume a gable w/ min pitch)? There are or should be cross ties at least at every 48". Can additional ones be added for ceiling joists and at what spacing?
What will be the ceiling height (top of wall plate)? Once the interior is finished will you need “attic” ventilation, possibly a thermastatically controlled exhaust fan to remove excess heat from above the insulated ceiling.What type of door/s and windows are existing?
What is the electrical service to the building now? You say that there are 3 circuits. You will need at least a min of 2) 20Amp and 1) 15 Amp circuits. This would be a 20 for heat/ AC, a 20 for the layout and the 15 for lighting.
I agree with the recommendation of a through wall system, like the Panasonic. These are much more efficient than window units.
Humidity control is to be the greatest factor due to your location. Proper insuating and ventilation
Arkansas is a killer with HOT summers and humidity. I dont know the exact temperature values but I run a small Fedder’s el cheapo window unit in my 8x10 Computer room to combat the heat. In addition to the central air in the home. When both are running 24/7 you know it’s hot.
We used to have plants in the room and it added to humidty in a real bad way. We have since removed and dispersed the plants through out the house.
The last time I got truly hot outside was a few years ago where the non AC cab of my Mixer was approaching 145 degrees in the sun and 65%-75% humidty before a thunderstorm reached the area. When the storm passed it dropped to about roughly 76 degrees and 100% humidty. We were in a valley which magnified the sun heat on that day.
Dont forget to allow water some place to go. You cool that soaking wet hot air and it’s going to drip a river somewhere. Hopefully away from the building.
The single biggest improvement was a set of two Turbines placed into the roof to remove the heat from the attic of our home. We already are in heavy tree growth but that one job reduced our overall heat by at least 10 degrees and cut our need to run the home’s heat/air at least in half.
Some summer days between June 30 to about sept 10th it gets dangerously hot and I consider that the car is not able to keep from overheating if allowed to get stuck in traffic. Fortunately we do our work at night and avoid the problem for now.
On days like that I think back to the winters up in the Dakotas and the Bitterroots where we had 65-75 below, 50+ mph steady wind and who knows what sort of windchill. Gotta love it. I see Phoenix and the Death Valley area as a sort of dry, you can get real hot but since humidty is very low you can get away with it. Down on the Gulf or up in the hollows on the east in the bottom land it can get really bad.
I have thought about the metal buildings on my land and frankly, I see that it gets just too hot in there. One of them reaches like 15
Very good point! Should have thought of it myself. The AC’s will drip constantly if they are clean and doing their job. It would be counter-productive to let the vent water accumulate at the foot of the very wall through which the moisture is entering in the first place, Us surgical tubing or something (wine making stores have lengths) and route the water into a cistern or out onto the lawn about 8’ away from the walls.