This has probably been asked & answered, but I couldn’t find it, so here goes. Dr. Riddle recommends tying the U post to the center rail & the A post to the outside, or common rail, on the 1033 transformer. He writes the U post is the variable power & shouldn’t be used for the common. Other lines can connect A to B for 5 volts, B to C for 11 volts, and A to C for 16 volts constant, tying into the common A post wiring. Lionel calls the U post the common & connects it to the outside rail with all transformers (Greenberg’s 153C contactor diagram).
I’ve got a small figure 8 tied into a larger layout by three fiber pins. The figure 8 will be powered by a 1033. The rest of the layout will be powered by a ZW. The ZW will be divided so that two trains can run on the larger layout & a third on the figure 8. Or, one train could run anywhere.
Does it matter which is common? Based on Riddle’s statements, I was going to use the U post as center connected on both transformers and the A post of both as common.
Will that work?
Thanks,
wyomingscout
If you’re using only two connections to each transformer, it doesn’t matter which way you wire it for postwar trains. (Modern trains’ whistles do care which polarity of whistle-bell signal they get.) If you’re using the multiple outputs from a transformer like the ZW, you will have strange results if you use anything but the U, which is the transformer’s common, as the layout common, connected to the outside rails. The transformers with a single adjustable output, on the other hand, should have another terminal, usually A for the 1033, as the common and U connected to the center rail. (B is the common if you only want or need 11 volts to the track.)
All the transformers listed in the table on the service manual for the 153C (VW, ZW, KW, V, and Z) are multiple-output transformers. That is why they all have U connected to the outside rail.
Connecting things as I have described will also consistently put positive voltage on the center rail when you operate the whistle control, which is compatible with modern locomotives.
Do not run one train from a block powered by one transformer output to a block powered by another. The schemes shown in figures 4-6 of the 153C manual are of this type and are unsafe. Lionel’s own service manual for the KW warns against this kind of operation.
Riddle may be a good music teacher; but his understanding of electricity is a little shaky. However, in this case, he got it right, connecting the 1033’s terminal A to the outside rails. That would not have been correct had he used a ZW, but he didn’t.
Okay, can I run a train from one side of the ZW to the other safely? I did it on my old layout, but was it safe?
wyomingscout
No, that is worse. Going between two different transformers, one or the other circuit breaker will trip before damage occurs. Between two outputs of one transformer, the circuit breaker will never trip. If the controls are set to exactly the same voltage or if the time spent bridging the gap is short, you can get away with it. But if the voltages are different, there will be arcing at least; and things will burn up if the train stalls over the gap and you don’t shut down quickly.
The proper way to do it is to provide switches that allow you to connect each block’s center rail to any of your transformer outputs (or to none). Then they can be assigned all to different transformers for separate running, or all to one transformer for running between blocks. You can also create more blocks than you have transformer outputs, to help in shuffling trains between sections.
Okay, thanks Bob. I was thinking of something like that for the figure 8 while waiting for your answer. Thought I could run an extra set of wires from the ZW through a switch to the figure 8. Also switch the 1033 line & turn the 1033 off and the ZW on when running a train onto the figure 8.
Should be easy enough to to the same thing for the other block powered by half of the ZW. That way I can run one train at a time anywhere on the layout or one, two, or three trains safely in their blocks.
Charlie
The terminal naming on the 1033 is indeed opposite of what is considered common nominclature. The “U” is the variable and should go to the center rail. There are also a couple of other transformers out there with the “U” as variable. One of the Lionel Train Books editions has a table with the posts for the different transformers. The edition I have at home isn’t the one.
Thanks, Roger. I’ll wire the layout in three blocks. The two blocks powered by the ZW with U as common. Each side of the ZW will control a block. I’m installing a DPDT (on/off/on) switch so I can cut power from one side of the ZW & use only one side to power both blocks when running one train on both.
On the third block, the DPDT switch will run the 1033 A post as common and the ZW U post as common.
If I understand you and Bob, that should allow me to run three trains at once, several combinations of two at once, or one train on all three blocks powered by one side of the ZW.
Charlie
I’m afraid I don’t understand your explanation, Charlie. But I would start with the idea that all the outside rails (except control rails) are connected together among all three blocks and permanently connected to both ZW-U and 1033-A. Then I would use switches to connect the center rail of each block to whichever output, ZW-A, ZW-D, or 1033-U, you want to power that block from at the moment.
For the most general possible setup, each block could be connected to any one of the three sources. This would take either a rotary switch or, perhaps cheaper and easier, two SPDT-CO switches per block. The first switch of each pair selects either 1033-U or the ZW; the second further selects which output of the ZW. So the block’s center rail goes to the first switch’s center terminal. One of the first switch’s side terminals goes to 1033-U. The first switch’s other side terminal goes to the second switch’s center terminal. And the second switch’s side terminals go to ZW-A and ZW-D.
Of course, you can simplify this if there are arrangements you know you will never need. For example, if you will always run one of the blocks from one side of the ZW, you don’t need any switches for that block. But I would urge you to put in all of them, and also to seriously consider subdividing your blocks too, for the flexibility it will give you. I have two transformers on my main layout and two main lines, but 5 blocks.
To add to the already excellent and thorough advice you’ve received so far:
As a general rule, single throttle transformers(like the 1033, 1044, and LW) use A as the common.
Multiple throttle transformers in general use U as the common.
If you don’t already have a copy, the repair manuals(either by Greenburgs or K-line) have copies of the instruction sheets for all of the transformers that will tell you this(and what voltages various terminal combinations will give). They’re definitely worth the small investment.
Let’s see if I’ve got this. I only need fiber pins in the center rail where the blocks meet. I run one big ‘common’ loop and afix it to both transformers - A on the 1033 & U on the ZW.
Then, the center rail from block #1 runs to the center of an SPDT switch. One side runs to the U post of the 1033. The other side runs to another SPDT switch. Each side of this runs to one side of the ZW, the A and D posts.
This repeats for blocks two and three.
I don’t know how to subdivide the blocks. Is that to run two trains simultaneously on the same main line?
Charlie
No, not for running two continuously on one main. It’s to make it possible to move trains between parts of the layout more easily. For example, if you had two loops with a couple of crossovers, with each loop being one block, you couldn’t swap the trains without getting them both powered by the same transformer at the same time. But, if you divide each loop into two blocks, you can stop one train in the half of its loop that includes one crossover and the other in the half of its loop that includes the other crossover, switch the unoccupied halves of each loop each to the other transformer, drive both trains across their crossovers to swap loops, then finally switch the now unoccupied other halves of the loops each to the other transformer.
It does take a little thought to locate the block gaps in the most useful places, which depends entirely on your own layout design. But it allows more realistic operation than picking the trains up by hand to change loops.
I think you understand the switch wiring perfectly.
I see what you mean with subdividing the loops. I might be able to do that.
Thanks for all the help.
Charlie
Another little suggestion: Mount the switches on your control panel so that the handles move left-right, to correspond to the location of your transformers and the ZW’s control handles. For example, suppose that the 1033 is located left of the ZW. Then the first switch (for each block) would select the 1033 when pushed to the left and the ZW when pushed to the right. The second switch would select ZW-D to the left and ZW-A to the right.
Yeah, I was going to mount them left/right but the switches I bought are pretty tight for the spacing I’m forced into.
The block switches have the 1033 on top & the ZW on bottom. The ZW switches have left on top & right on bottom. That’ll be pretty easy for me (especially after I label everything) & shouldn’t be a problem for my grandson or other engineers.
So far, I’ve got the wiring from the two transformers through all the switches. Tomorrow I’ll start wiring the blocks themselves.
Electricity - it keeps me on my toes! [;)]
Charlie