Help needed with short circuit

Model Railroader Electronics and DCC
1

Hi All,

I tried uploading an image or find a way to post an attachment, but that doesn’t seem to be possible in this forum. I need help with an issue with a PECO electrofrog turnout Powered by a tortoise machine. Anytime the loco hits the frog it is shorting out. I have two turnouts back to back. One of them works fine and the other one shorts out. I have used this video for wiring instructions:

https://youtu.be/fz0xn5sySZE

The first turnout works just fine but the second one shorts out at the frog. I wired the right side and the left side to connectors 2 and 3 of the tortoise and the frog to connector 4. i tried the following to resolve:

  • new turnout

  • new tortoise

-all four rail Connectors are insulated

  • reversed connectors 2 and 3 on the tortoise

  • used the second switch on the tortoise

What am I doing wrong?

Since I can’t insert a picture, here is a schema of my layout:

Turnout 1 works fine

-------------------------------------------- -------/---- ---------------------

------------------------------------------- -----/

Turnout 2 directly connected to turnout 1, all 4 joins insulated

2

We had that problem at our club with our Peco turnouts. Our solution that lasted over 40 years so far was to put a thin coat of clear nail polish on the areas of the frog that are close enough to short across the rails. Just make sure it is totally dry before you test run an engine over it.

Joe

3

Hi Joe,

Thank you for your reply. So, are you essentially making the electrofrog being an insulfrog? I even tried disconnecting the frog wire and it still shorts out. Do you have this problem with turnouts from other brands?

4

We assume this is not specific to a particular locomotive or car?

Does it short to the frog no matter which track is lined?

Is this a crossover or are the two turnouts lined with one turnout switch?

Peco power route. You need only insulate the two rails leaving the frog although insulating both rails should not cause a short.

Powering a Peco turnout from the heel of the frog end can cause problems. From your description of the problem you have a wiring issue since you have eliminated component faults. Power should enter the turnout from the toe only (points end).

Somehow the frog that shorts is getting the phase incorrect.

You did remove the two tiny wires that make the frog an electro frog? There are two things that make the insulfrog different to electrofrog. The insulfrog frog has plastic at the very point of the frog and the electrofrog powers the frog and a bunch of other rails in the turnout through those time jumper wires that cross the insulating gap in each closure rail. Old electro frog turnouts didn’t even have those gaps and jumper wires. Peco now makes Unifrog which are electrically electro frog out of the package but easily converted to insulfrog by clipping those jumper wires.

Disconnecting the frog power from your electrofrog turnouts with those jumpers clipped has to eliminate the short unless power is getting to the frog from somewhere else. Look for the power supply still reaching your frog.

If the turnouts are identical try swapping them around and see if the problem follows the turnout. I’m betting it won’t.

5

Yes, it shorts out no matter what the turnout status is and from what direction I drive into it. It even shorts out if I disconnect the frog wire from the tortoise, which is especially puzzling to me.

Turnout 1 is a left turnout followed by a right turnout on the branch track. Both have their own tortoise. But only turnout 2 has an issue.

6

If turnout 2 is also LH try swapping the two. Or, if I understand you correctly turnout 2 is RH connected at the points end to the heel end of turnout 1?

Only the frog area shorts?

Can you figure out how the disconnected frog on turnout 2 is always powered up?

Where is the conflicting power phase coming from and how can this be shorting each of the exit tracks? Phase should be correct half the time, no?

7

Turnout 2 is right hand. Also, I already used a new turnout and tortoise.

8

Definitely a wiring problem. Trace all sources of power that could reach that frog through a rail. There have to be two that are always opposite phase for the short to be permanent.

There have been reports of live frogs shorting to the frog guard rails due to wheel treads or flanges touching the wrong bits but electrofrog should not exhibit that behaviour because the whole frog, closure rails and both diverging routes are supposed to be the same phase as the lined track. That’s how electrofrog is supposed to be better than insulfrog,

9

Thanks!!! that’s what I am thinkin, but all six joints of the turnout are insulated and the outer tracks are wired to connectors 2 and 3 of the tortoise.What other wiring options do I have?

10

Have you accidentally connected two power districts or created a reversing section like a loop or a Wye?

May sound silly but I’ve sometimes just traced a single rail with my finger to keep track (har har) of polarity on my DC layout (phase for DCC) to make sure each block is actually electrically isolated meaning only one power connection, any duplicated power drops are connected only to one pair of connections at the power source. We use common rail so only the black wire rail needs to be traced. For DCC you should trace both rails to ensure no possibility of out of phase power going to either rail.

Yesterday I was puzzled by moving locomotives in our yard under construction. We had added double ends to the sidings and we use Peco power routing turnouts (which is why an electrofrog with a disconnected frog wire acts pretty much like insulfrog as long as there’s no power going into the heel ends of the main and diverging routes, insulating rail joiners on the inside rails prevent this). We added multiple power drops to some sidings, routed through single pole on/off switches (Atlas connectors which come in handy three switch format plus an unswitched pass through so effectively four alternative power connections) the idea being using more than one separately controllable locomotive to move cars on some sidings, or storing several locomotives on a siding. (I know, we should just use DCC)

For DC there is no problem with creating a common rail across the stock rail sides of an electrofrog but for DCC there can be if any of the two sets of rails can become opposing phase. For DC this would just stop the locomotive drawing power from that powerpack. For DCC it shuts down the booster (whether a separate booster is used or one integral to the command unit). DCC within a power block is equivalent to common rail in that each rail is connected to its own “pole” throughout the power section. The equivalent in DC is a Block. For DC

11

Unless you modified the turnout by cutting the jumpers underneath, the frog polarity is controlled by which point rail is contacting which stock rail. Or perhaps you missed one.

It’s not particularly clear where you have insulated joiners. By all 4, do you mean the diverging side of both turnouts? Both rails of each, or just the two rails of each, the two that join at the frog (those are the only ones that NEED insulated joiners). Given that, do you have a feeder for the point side of turnout 2 after the insulated joiner on the frog rail of turnout 1? Or some other source of power feeding turnout 2, if you wired the underside with the closure to stock rail jumpers, that can be your power feed.

Are there power feeds past turnout 2? If the frog rails of turnout 2 are insulated, this is not a problem - but are they the correct phase? Using your diagram, if your feeder colors are red and white, for the 4 tracks to the left, straight from turnout 1, and the two tracks from turnout 2, they should all be the same. Top down, red/white,red/white,red/white in that order, or whatever colors you used. Track to the right, feeding the points ot turnout 1, should also be red/white top/bottom. As should any internal feeds to the turnouts.

If you double gapped everything, works fine, but not really required unless you want to cut power on the sidings, then you should have a total of 8 insulated joiners in your arrangement. If just the frog rails are gapped (the REQUIRED gaps), you would have used a total of 4 insulated joiners across the 2 turnouts.

If you followed that video EXACTLY, it should be fine. If you have a meter with continuity test, witht he frog wire disconnected from the tortoise, there should be no continuity between the frog and either stock rail - if there is, you may have forgotten to cut one of both of the links on the bottom. Or the bare frog wire, which is rather long, is touching something else - this video didn’t do it but others I’

12

Hi Randy,

yes, I did cut the jumpers underneath as per instructions in the video I posted above. I meant to say that all 6 joints are insulated. To turnout is completely insulated from all directions and only gets its power from the tortoise. I soldered one wire to the outer most track on each side of the turnout and then soldered the connectors from the outer track to the center tracks. I also tried connecting directly to the bus wire, not connecting the frog and leave the tortoise completely out of the picture but it still shorts out. How is this even possible? I expected to get a dead area around the frog, but not a short.

i wish I could post a picture, that would explain it clearly, but it seems to be impossible in this forum.

13

When you have time, see the following (first) sticky thread in the General section of the Forum on how to post photos. You can paste a correct type of link into a post, but the photo has to be on a certain type (hosting?) site.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/249194.aspx

In my case, I use Flickr. I upload jpeg photos to there, then click Share, and copy the BB code (one of several types). Then I can simply paste the BBcode link into my post. When I post my reply, the photo itself then shows in the thread.

20200821_125633 by Paul Ahrens, on Flickr

14

I did one more test. I completely disconnected the tortoise, now there are only two wires that connect from my bus to the turnout. No frog wire, no tortoise, all 6 joints are insulated. Still shorts out. I think I am going to remove the entire secondary track that is connected to the turnout and start over.

15

I was told that you cannot use an online service to post pictures if a login is required. Is this not correct? Flickr uses a login.

16

If you have a blog you can post from it.

The only host I’ve had bad luck with is Google Photo, for some reason not all users can see them.

Edit:

Email the jpgs to me and I’ll post them for you until you find a host.

melsmodelrailroad@gmail.com

Mel

My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/

Bakersfield, California

I’m beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.

17

Flickr (which requires login) and other similar photo hosting sites work fine, if the photo is (when uploaded) is made public (Flickr asks). The aforementioned sticky thread explains that other sites requiring login such as Facebook, do not work. So the log-in comment in that thread is not applicable to the photo hosting sites, I guess.

18

I’ve had the same problem with several Peco turnouts. They worked fine for years until I bought my first steamer. Its wheels are wider than diesel wheels. Mine are plastic-frog turnouts. If you look at the frog carefully, you will see the spot where the two diverging rails almost meet, with a short insulated space between them. Wide-tread metal wheels can bridge that gap, causing a short.

The nail polish trick works perfectly. It coats just a bit of the diverging rails so the wheels can’t make contact for a moment. It’s not enough of a gap to stall the engine. It does not turn an electrofrog into an Insulfrog or vice versa.

This problem is specific to Peco turnouts, because the gap between the diverging rails is much thinner than other turnouts. It is likely specific to some engines, too.

Put on an engineer cap, wear a red bandana as a Covid mask, and go to a cosmetic store and buy a little bottle of black nail polish, or find a Goth girlfriend named Morticia to get it for you.

You’re right. It sounds silly. But, it’s easier than cutting jumpers or changing turnouts. And, it really works. I have never had to re-do mine, and haven’t had that short since.

19

Flickr works fine - you have to use their sharing link, just like any other photo service. You cannot just simply link the URL YOU see when viewing your photos you upload there, THAT requires a login. The share link is specifically designed to post pictures to forums such as this.

–Randy

20

The fingernail polish works - for INSULFROG turnouts. The OP has Electrofrog. The frog should match polarity with the closure rail and points when connected to the Tortoise or, since it has been electrically modified, completely dead if the wiring to the Tortoise is removed. Shuffled off this mortal coil. Gone to meet his maker. An ex-frog, you might say. Not merely pining for the fjords.

–Randy