Help on transfering a plan to the table

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

OK, first - I’m a senior engineer that works with super computers - that just means that all creativity, vision and design has been drilled out of me by college and my career. When you work with systems that 30 minutes of downtime equals a 1 million dollar penalty, nobody wants to hear that you have a creative idea.

I have found 2 track plans in the 48 top notch track plan book that I like. I have modified them a little to fit into my 10x12 area for my layout. However, they use a lot of flex track. I have spent a year buying every book and article I can on track plans, layout tips, bench building, track laying, flex track laying. and I can’t find anything that shows how to figure and lay non-standard curves. I really don’t want to start cutting my plywood base, only to find that I didn’t cut it right and my switch won’t line up now with the main. I would love to do spline work, but, have no idea how to get that laid out from the plans - and spline work is even more unforgiving than just cutting a 4" wide strip of plywood. If anyone has a website, book, article, suggestion please help.

I started my reentry into model railroading a year and a half ago. I had to start from the ground up again as that I sold everything years ago. So, I went with DCC. I have already spent over $2,000 and don’t have a single bit of track laid. I have spent countless hours scouring the Internet, belong to more websites than I care to think about, heck I am even subscribed to the model railroad video series. I’ve talked with my local hobby shops, they really just want to sell me stuff, generally of no help. My wife has said “no more” until you start actually building something, if not, then I am going to take the space back over again for me.

I have bought cadrail, rrtrack and downloaded atlasrr. Working with flextrack in those programs is tough

2

Wecome woodwd234.

You’ve come to the right place. The forum members here will help you.

  1. Which track plans in 48 Top Notch Plans are you interested in ?

  2. Can we assume you’ve not started on benchwork ?

Regards,

3

The problem with drawing out a plan by hand is that a lot of times it just doesn’t fit in reality.

I use the Atlas program a lot and I like it. The flex track tool can be funky though. One thing that help with that is to connect the two ends of the flex, then click on the shaping tool. Next, click on the track itself. A small menu box will pop up. Now drag the two slider ALMOST all the way to the left and click the “Optomize” button a few times. I don’t know why you have to do it a few times, but it seems to “dial it in” sort of. That will usually give you the best curve radius.

One thing about the Atlas planning software that I like is that once you get the plan to where you want it, just zoom in till you get to “1”, and then print it. It will print the plan in full size. Make sure you have plenty of paper in the printer. Most of it will print out white, so you can just put it back in the printer when you’re done.

Now just get some tape and you’ve got your plan ready to transfer. You could probably even glue it to the wood you want to cut out if you do the cookie cutter method. Then you could cut it out and lay your cork or foam right on top of it.

Another method would be to lay out your main curves and important points first, then do the subroadbed in between in a connect-the-dots fashion.

4

I haven’t done this yet, but it seems to make sense. In art class as a child I learned a technique for copying items. You divide the plan into squares (most software has such a grid tool), then divide the layout into those same squares. Then, square by square, you can copy the plan to the layout.

Another alternative, if you have an overhead projector, would be to project the plan onto large sheets of paper. We have a relative who provides us rejects or waxed paper on a roll (used for packaging for ice cream bars). Making sure the projection is to scale, you can lay that out and mark the key places on the layout (push a pin through, or cut a hole and mark it.

Just some thoughts,
Jerry

5

I laid the plan out full size on the floor with blue masking tape. I then made a full size drawing with a large roll of paper. I still hade to modify it as I went which is why I am still a fan of cookie cutter track work.

6

My technique is to make templates of everything that has fixed dimensions (turnouts especially, but bridges and rerailers also) with a copying machine. I also make flex-track-wide templates of my standard curves. Then I lay everything out full size on posterboard supported by a sheet of 1.5 inch foam board, using sections of flex to form those non-standard curves (and prototypical easements.) I use the curve templates to assure that I don’t accidentally work in any too-tight radii - bigger is fine, smaller is not. Then I edge-trace the final arrangement on the poster board, cut it out and use that as a full-size template for ‘cutting cookies’ and laying track. (Note - the foam board is just a work surface, not part of the layout.)

Quick trick on that final template, once it’s in place on your roadbed - hit it with a quick spray of dark green, brown or red clay color, then remove the template. Leaves a perfect outline for track laying. I also spray the template itself with ballast grey, since I always have to shim my flex to match the tie height of my handbuilt specialwork. The template is already the right shape.

This technique uses a lot of thin poster board, but I got a big box of 22 x 28 sheets at an office supply house for about the cost of two lengths of quality flex track.

Hope this helps.

Chuck (modeling central Japan in September, 1964)

7

I’m currently trying to work with the Laurel Highland RR, on page 42 and connect it with a spur to Terminal Solution on page 39.

Yes, I have already built some of my benchwork - although I have a feeling that it will need to be redone.

I was wanting to build something from the later part of the logging industry, but, really can’t find any good layouts that can be made to fit in a 10 x 12 area.

8

tomikawaTT - I do like the idea of the foam board with poster board. I was trying to figure out a way to temporarily mount my track to the plywood, mark it and then cookie cutter it. But, the foam board will allow me to use t-pins and hold the track in place as I figure where its best placement is. I can then create that template to lay on the plywood and cut it. That sure beats trying to find long skinny nails that I can tack the track down with and then remove without destroying the track.

Sometimes you have to go “duh”, and think of a simpler solution. I was trying to come up with all kinds of ways to mount the track to the plywood to figure out the cutting. So, far I’ve got some good ideas that are much simpler to do. Like the overhead projector. I bet I could use my home theater projector, scan my hand traced drawing into my computer and use it to project that image on the board and trace it from there!

Thanks for the suggestions guys - maybe now I can get off the paper and start building something.

9

This is the way I’m doing it. I used an architects 12" scale at 1 1/2 inches to the foot (1 1/2" : 1’ ) And grided my white unlined paper with 1 scale foot grids. 1 1/2" squares.

Some of the drafting tools I used are;

T square, triangle, protracter, eraser, compass, dividers, .5mm mechanical pencil,eraser,etc.

Go to the Fast Tracks website and download the full scale prints of whatever turnouts, crossovers or track work your proposed layout needs. You can do two things with the printout. One is to use them to lay out the full scale layout the other for drafting is to scale the actual dimensions down to 1 1/2" to 1. Then you can get the departure angle of the turn out. I’d suggest making templates of these from stiff paper and cutting out the departure angle as a pencil guide. Also mark the physical size of your scaled down template with tic marks to show the ends of the rails.

With this you should be able to rough in a very accurate depiction of your track work at the table.

Next I would find out what structures or items you want on the layout…Try to find the footprint dimension of these items and cutout the footprint dimensions to your drafting scale.

This will help you to visualize the final product and will let you know in real life if it will fit. Don’t forget that the track centerline you lay down will grow very large when track and roadbed are added…make a few scale cars and trucks for road and turnaround space.

After you have drawn what you want, after juggling and 5 or 6 iterations lay it out full scale.

Use your dividers to pick up the dimensions from you scale drawing to transfer thes to the full size paper that you drew 1 foot squares on. Hit the local hardware store for a 6 foot x1"x1/2" straight edge before you buy it lay it down flat and make sure it is indeed straight to the eyeball. Use the full size Fast Tracks turnout downloads and make full scale HO ? footprints for your structu

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No kidding, I’m not smart enough to learn these cad programs - I work on supercomputers and all these “cad” programs have me at a loss. I have purchased several and spent many hours trying to get my plans into them - only to finally give up in frustration.

I was trying to work with peco c83 track and most of the programs do not support them, or they are all in metric measurements - I don’t mind metric - heck I’m a volunteer medic and spend most my time converting all my meds into metric.

I was working with the rr-track program again tonight and after 3 hours - I gave up again. I don’t see how other people put out these nice diagrams all the time - to me it’s computer magic (don’t tell my boss I said that!)

11

First of all, I recommend you pick part of your plan and BUILD IT! You may end up redoing that section, but you will learn lots very quickly. I seem to have been relatively successful, and here’s how I did it…

I used xtrkcad. It’s free and handles flextrack well. It does take a few hours to learn - make a cup of coffee (or a pot), and go through the demo’s, practicing the techniques as you go.

I am building with Atlas track, and I needed to measure and input the dimensions for my turnouts. You could do this with peco as well.

I printed out the raw xtrkcad data file, and laid out the turnouts, etc. based on their coordinates. I printed 1:1 scale templates for turnouts, crossovers, particular radius curves, and pinned them to my benchwork at the coordinates provided in the data file. If you have a complex track structure, such as a yard, which must fit together properly, you need to assemble it using track pieces in it’s entirety, mark the actual locations for each piece, and spike them down where they belong.

I had a hard time laying flextrack pieces. An accurate approach is to lay out the curves using a string and pencil to draw precise radii segments. Where I didn’t do this, I sometimes got non-optimal (too small) radii.

You’re going to run into lots of other issues too, such as soldering rail joiners (or not), feeders, wire gauge, turnout jumpers, etc. I found the easiest way to solder feeders is to solder them to the underside of the rails between ties, with the wire bent at a 90 degree angle. Personally, I soldered almost no rail joiners, but put feeders on almost every track section.

Go ahead and try building some of your plan. When you improve as you go along, you can redo the first parts.

Have fun, and dont sweat it so much!

Jim

12

Regarding the model rr cad programs:

• As someone else has said, they give you an accurate picture of what will fit and work, especially of how turnouts integrate. They also make it very easy to make changes and study variations.

• If you don’t have one, get a Mac! (As super a computer as there is for consumers!)

• Then get Empire Express - you can try a free demo then pay a VERY modest price to buy it and be able to save plans.

• The program has pretty good “catalogs/libraries” of track and some structures.

• Switches/turnouts, etc., are provided; you can even construct your own rather easily if you have a full-size or scale template or the actual unit that you can measure or possibly scan.

• Flex track is very easy - specify a radius (if you wish), and just select and drag the line to bend it to an accurate curve.

• The program has a simple tutorial that is easy to follow.

Good luck - you’ll find it is really fun to do!

Dante

13

You indicated you are trying to work with the Laurel & Highland and connect via a spur to the Terminal Solution and that you have a 10’ x 12’ space to work in.

Both of these plans are modified 4’ x 8’ layouts. You must have some modification in mind for both plans in order to fit in your 10’ x 12’ space.

A key point here is that a 4 x 8 footprint will need clearance around the sides to reach into the layout to rescue a derailed train and work on scenery etc.

Assuming no obstructions from windows, doors or anything else, here is a rough sketch.

http://home.austin.rr.com/tomsandy/ww234.pdf

Maybe you can post a rough sketch of the room layout and how you envision the plans fitting.

The first couple of pages of 48 Top Notch Plans talks about doodling by the squares. You also mention logging as something you would like. Ed Summer indicates that the mines he has depicted on the Laurel & Highlands could easily be replaced with logging camps [;)]

Regards,

14

Tom thanks for responding - I’ll give quick info here, with more to follow later.

I’ll have to wait until I get home to post something - don’t have access to my files at work. I have a partial drawing I was putting into rrtrack. I’ll see if I can get it to spit something out that I can post here. Don’t have a website that I can put it on.

Anyway, I see your layout - My decisions:

  1. put terminal solution the way you have it, but against the wall - tested and 3 feet is an easy reach for that flat of a layout.
  2. put LH either against the wall or a little in for work - maybe the way you have it of flipping and reversing it over.

I guess I should say 12x10 - the way I have it right now is:
3 ft for terminal solution
4 ft for connection between 2 layouts (haven’t figured this part out yet
5 ft for Laurel and highland.

that connecting piece that can change if I need more/less room.

15

When laying out curves, I did the tested method of using a yardstick. Simply drill a hole at the required radius, and swing it like a big compass. That is, if you need a 26" curve, drill a hole on 26 and drive a nail into the other end. Stick a pencil in the hole, and swing the yardstick. You’ll get a nice curve.

16

I’ve been using Xtrkcad to plan the layout.

You can select the scale you want to print to, and it can print to multiple sheets of paper. So I set it to 1:1, select an area to print, and a stack of paper comes out of the laser printer. I use 8.5 x 14 sheets (less paper to lay). I then place them on the benchwork, using the registration marks to locate them, and align them too.

I’m thinking about using a pizza cutter to transfer the centerlines to the plywood. It will leave a nice depression in the wood that you can follow. Straight sections you can do with a ruler, etc, but for curves, I think this will work better.

17

Same as betamax, I have been using XrtkCad for a little over a year. Here are the two plans “joined at the hip” as it were.

Changes from the originals in 48 Top Notch Plans.

  1. I had to use #7.5 turnouts where marked (edit: Oops - the notes did not come out. The two TOs are on the right hand side of Laurel - can’t miss them). I seem to recall the original plan called for Model Power curved turnouts. These I do not have in XtrkCad library, however, the #7.5 has an inside radius of 24" and an outside of 28". They are long!

  2. I used Walthers-Shinohara #4’s in all other places except for the Wye’s. These are Atlas 280 Mark 3’s because they were available in the XtrkCad library.

  3. I choose to compress (compromise) on the connection trackwork between Terminal and Laurel and in the area behind the retaining wall, the hidden staging, in Terminal.

  4. XtrkCad is available for free a

18

You mentioned not having a website to put things on…

Take a look at www.tinypic.com for putting up images. It’s free and easy, you just click the upload button, navigate to where you saved the image on your computer, click OK, and the page spits out 3 text boxes you can use to post the image for the world to see. Use the one with IMG in square brackets to post here on the forums.

HTH :slight_smile: