Help please!: Need expert help on preserving the 1868 UPRR Right of Way

Thanks for the long post.

I am the project manager, and yes I am a geophysicist/geologist. I work for a multi-national major oil company and my job is to get the data and run the project. Yes there is lots of money involved and it is my job to get the job done. Like any oil company we are particularly concerned about taking care of the environment and taking care of the land.

I do have a lot of professional help. I have around 15 surveyors and around 30 full time Archaeologist working the project. The issue is a matter of making sure it all make sense. I have to take responsibility for the project and it is my name on the bottom line that I did it right. Thus I need to convince myself that I have covered all the P’s and Q’s of the project. Hence my question to you guys who are the experts on this stuff.

You are exactly correct in your statement that my goal is “don’t go here!”. I will have guys on quads driving all over the area laying out cables every 100 to 200 yards and vibes going every 100 yrds and stopping ever 50 yards. If you figure I am going to have around 200 folks working for me at any one time, the main goal is to keep people away from things they should not go to.

I find it hard to swallow that you are using an internet forum with people of no known credentials or expertise to do your QA/QC rather than a professional subconsultant with demonstrated expertise in this area, or that your method meets the standard of care for your profession or for your client or employer, or is legally defensible under the American Antiquities Act or NEPA. Perhaps you’ll get it all done correctly and there will be no issues, or, perhaps you won’t and distrust, cynicism, and new regulations will be promulgated to the harm of all. I wonder if your employer saw “use internet forum for fact checks and QA/QC” on your risk-analysis form.

<

And all along I thought this forum was already frequented by at least one professional subconsultant with demonstrated expertise…

Well, collectively we’ve posted a lot about how smart we are and how much we know and all our experiences and how dumb those other guys are without a clue, so I can’t say as I blame him for thinking that we might be an informed though informal resource . . .

Didn’t we have a thread here on brain surgery a couple months ago ?

Or, is it that we stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night ?

Or maybe I’m thinking of that TV ad [ for GEICO ?] with the guy at his kitchen table and a bunch of knives, talking on the phone with a surgeon in scrubs at a hospital getting instructions about how to self-perform an appendectomy (sp?), which ends with him saying, “Shouldn’t you be doing this ?”

  • PDN.

PME I with you all the best with your research. Given time I hope you are able to publish some of your findings.

I should have emphasized a little better last nite that I am Not anything approach any kind of professional. I have read considerable amounts over the years, and it was on this that I threw my 2 cents worth in.

One other comment, Ask someone better than I about this. But My thought on the railroad ties is that considering the quality of the ties used I would suspect that when the rail was pulled up on the first right of way the rail and spikes were probably salvaged but the ties may have been left in the ground. I think that the imprint of the ties may show up in a ground radar scan.

Rgds IGN

Well, we had a breakthrough yesterday due to some of the suggestions I picked up here. You all underestimate yourselves as to your expertise. Yesterday I was able to obtain scanned maps from the UPRR that show all but a few sections of where I was concerned about. I now have very accurate maps of the old 1868 grade that matches my airphotos perfectly. The only areas we are really missing is up by I-80 where it was destroyed to construct I-80 and the pipelines/fiber optic cables. If the weather holds I will head out today and take pictures of the grade and show you what we are dealing with. If not today, then over the weekend. We are under a winter storm advisory today.

I have to say it has been fun sorting this out and dealing with the various groups. What I have found is that most Railroaders, Museum staff, and especially the UPRR folks were very accommodating and quite willing to help once they understood the what and the why I was doing it.

I will add that I was pleased that I could figure out correctly the pattern of the railroads re-alignments based upon the airphotos and topography, I had is spotted correctly according to the UPRR. There is nothing like confirmation from the UPRR to add credence to my Arch’s reports.

Again, Thank you to various people who made some great suggestions. It was the key to the breakthrough to find the right folks who gave me the right maps.

pme,

Well it sounds like your persistence paid off. It is nice to know that there is concern for preserving historical remnants of the old roadbed. I look forward to seeing your photographs of any remaining features. Thanks for posting about it.

Yes, the RR’s, at least the Class 1’s, should have maps which depict the evolution of their main lines and significant branch lines. However, there seems to be fewer engineering personel who know where to find them due to the outsourcing of engineering work to some of our correspondents found here. Who by the way are retiring from the scene to be replaced by those who have never had actual RR experience obtained by being on the RR payroll.

This is illustrated from your correspondence showing the Cheyenne office, who has operational responsibility at this location, had to rely on Omaha to assist you. Those who are retired from the RR’s will soon vanish also. My muddy friend has remarked about this at this site with justification and insight.

Thanks for the help again.

I thought it would be interesting (seeing as some are a bit skeptical of this project) to see how you all do. This is a test of your abilities to spot the correct railroad grade.

Go to google earth or google maps and do a search on Cherokee Hill, Wyoming.

In Google earth, zoom up to about 10000ft and move cherokee hill off to the lower right hand side. You should see I-80 to the north and the UPRR mainline to the south.

In Google maps, zoom out to about the 3rd click out and you should have I-80 to the north and the same UPRR main line to the south. (Zoom out twice and move the “A” marker to right hand side of the screen

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=cherokee+hill,+wyoming&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=us&ei=LYvXSfmPHtiMtgf-8ejhDw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1

Now, look at the map. If you glance at it a few seconds you can see you have at least 3 alignments shown. So which one is the real 1868 grade? The northern one, north central, or central?

Next test. Drag over till you have 789 to on the west of your screen. Where is the original 1868 grade now? And is your pick from the Cherokee Hill still the correct one? Where did it go and are you sure?

Last test, Drag over till you see the Creston Rd come down to the 400 ft UPRR right of way. Wher

http://books.google.com/books?id=ij8uAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA25

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/tcrr/sfeature/pop_map.html

Wanswheel,

Thanks for the link to the book, looked at a few pages and decided the book was interesting enough to download it.

Hmmm, the 140th anniversary of the Golden Spike is a bit over a month away…

  • Erik

Here is the grade south of I-80 near Riner.

Here is the grade south of I-80 near Creston Junction.

Here is the grade south of I-80 near Creston.

It was a nice snow storm here in Rawlins, so when they finally opened the road up (I-80 was closed in both directions) I headed out to the field to photograph the actual right of way. These are all areas we got maps from UPRR that show us exactly where the grade was. Nothing like GPS, good airphotos and a good basemap from UPRR to show us which grade is “the” grade. While these pictures don’t show it, there are places where it was realigned at least 3 times and while I could not see it in the pictures I found the areas where the 1867/68 abandoned curve is located.

We did find some odd looking spikes/bolts. They were so rusty it is hard to tell it was not a bolt, but it was short, maybe 4" long for a spike. We also found a leaf spring from a RR truck of some type. It was too thick for a car. Obviously we left them right where we found them, but it certainly showed us we were on the right of way.

Again, I wish to thank you all for your advice, comments and help. It was your comments that broke the iceblock that allowed me to contact the right person at UPRR to get the maps that solved this puzzle.

All I can say is Thanks!

pme,

So the roadbed does actually have existing physical features. That seems rather surprising because the earthwork appears to have been so minimal in the first place. It looks like it just followed the gentle, relatively flat surface profile, and ditched the sides to pull up enough fill to slightly raise the roadbed. Given that minimal excavation, I would expect it to be entirely obliterated after more than a century. I would think that just the wind and rain could have put the fill back into the ditches.

But I do not understand the nature of that land, its soil, or its use. From what I see in the photos, it appears that the land is tilled for farming, and that the old right of way is being preserved from tilling and used for travel as a roadway. Is this being done to comply with the same order to protect the roadbed that you are complying with? If that is the case, how can this protection be fulfilled with the roadbed being used as a road?

4" long is not unusual for a spike of the type that would have been used for the rails back in 1867-68. I believe those rails were in the 56 to 60 lb. per yard range, and for those spikes in the range of 1/2" square x 3" to 4" long would be appropriate (and maybe a little smaller, too). See the tables from A&K Railroad Materials, Inc. for both “Track Spikes” and “Track Bolts” near the bottom of the web page at:

http://www.akrailroad.com/OnlineCatalog/TrackAccessories/TiePlatesRailAnchorsGaugeRodsFasteners/tabid/85/Default.aspx

For comparison, most spikes used today are 5/8" square x 6" long for 100 to 141 lb rails; for lighter rails, such as 85 or 90 lb., 9/16" x 5-1/2" would be appropriate.

For bolts, it appears that 3/4" diam. x 3-1/2" long for be appropriate for those size/ weight rails. Since that is a good 1/4" more than the spike size, maybe that will help you figure out whether it was a spike or a bolt that you found.

As to the broader question: Glad you seem to have found what you were looking for. This may be a another case of “following the proper procedure vs. getting the right results” - if you got the right answer, the process you used might not matter too much; b

A valid topic, but for discussion on another day.

I can’t tell you how much I enjoyed these photographs. I cannot believe how much they resemble the abandoned Strathmore and Langdon Sub’s. east of Calgary They were abandoned around 35 years ago, so it is amazing to see what the old ROW looks like after more than a century. The snow on the ground really helps bring out the contrasts in the landscape. It may not have been nearly as easy to spot the ROW after growing season had started.

I have always enjoyed seeing things like this as I like to imagine what it would have been like out there way back when. When I was young, I used to like riding around with my uncle while he was making his rounds as a ditchrider northwest of Brooks, AB. He knew an amazing amount about where long abandoned wagon trails were, and even though you are talking about vehicles with much less weight, it only takes a summer or so of interrupting the growth pattern in an area to leave permanent marks on the ground. Although I have never seen them, I have read that you can see the ruts of the original stagecoach trail between Calgary and Edmonton where the builders of the rail line veered away from the original wagon trail at various locations north of Red Deer. I have to admit, the green types got this one right.

A nice way to start the week.

AgentKid

pme: I am also an oil geologist working in Wyoming, based in Casper. I’ve traced all the old alignments via Google maps before, and drive on I-80 through this section often enough to recognize your photo spots. I’ve been most interested in the old line(s) over Sherman Summit between Laramie and Cheyenne, including the old (abandoned) Dale Trestle site. Until I started looking on Google satellite images, I never realized how much changed from the 1866-1868 period to today.

A very interesting place is north of Laramie, just a bit east of Medicine Bow, where the old (original) line went north of Como Bluff, and this is where a UP section maintenance guy discovered the first dinosaurs in Wyoming in about 1868. Now the main line runs south of Como Bluff. But one can readily see the original grade with cuts and fills, even along the flats.

My son is a private pilot, and a few weeks ago I had him fly me over Sherman Hill and Como Bluff (plus the Hermosa Tunnels, Dale Junction, etc.). I got some great aerial photos of the old railroad grade, abandoned in 1901 with the realignment to Buford, then later with the addition of the Harriman line.

Bucyrus: This part of Wyoming is grazing land, at best, and NOT tilled for farming. The climate is very dry, and vegetation sparse. So hundred-year-old railroad grades actually tend to be very well preserved, except where they were overrun by highway construction.

For a fun exercise, Use Google Maps to go to Rock Springs, WY, head north following the still present rail branch to an old coal mine, but also keep going north over 40 miles along a now abandoned grade clear to South Pass and Atlantic City, site of an old iron mine. This grade was abandoned in 1983, 25 years ago. The original UPRR transcontinental grades were mostly re-routed in 1901, over 100 years ago.

Another interesting one is the former "Wyoming N

Wyoming geo-guy,

I used a combination of DRG’s of 7.5 minute TOPO’s and Google satellite view to trace the line of the St Joseph Valley interurban line in northeastern Indiana. The line was abandoned in 1918 and traces of the ROW are still visible.

  • Erik

Sorry I didn’t get to read this thead until now. Glad you were successful. Just wanted to mention that at Golden Spike NHS, we have unaltered UP1869 grade (only used for a few years), spikes and rail. Four inches is about right and there were no tie plates. Ties were hand hewn untreated cottonwood and pine so they started rotting away the first winter.

dd

dd: Cool that you live near Promontory Summit, Utah! I drove that grade last September – just the parts near the Golden Spike NHS center, not all the way to Lucin. Someday I want to do the whole thing. In preparation for my visit last fall, I checked out the grades on Google, including of course all the places where the UP and CP built past each other on parallel grades, even crossing each other. Yes, that is a great example of grade preservation for over 100 years.

Being in Utah, you should check out many old abandoned grades: Parley’s Canyon, adjacent to I-80 just west of Parley’s summit (cool switchback loops); old line from Fairfield to Ophir and Mercur in the south end of the Oquirrh Mtns; all around Eureka in the Tintic mining district. I recommend you look at the book, “Utah Ghost Rails”.

Erik: I’m pleased that even in the more humid climate of the midwest, a 90-year old grade can still be followed. I suspect this is more widespread than people realize.

Hello to someone else in the industry! As you have probably figured out, I am shooting a large 3D seismic survey for a major but I try to keep my company name out of it do to corporate disclosure rules. If you recognize the pictures then you know the area well. It is actually kind of interesting to drive from Rawlins to Rock Springs and look for the old grades. Now that I have scouted this out, I can start to sort out the different grades and pick them out from I-80. I have to run to Rock Springs today to the airport so I will try and take some more pictures.

I am planning on running over to Medicine Bow tomorrow and wait for the 844 to come by then I intend on chasing it to Creston where I expect to get the best pictures crossing the continental divide. Maybe I will see you there? I have a big brown dirty 4x4 Tundra. If you are there stop by and say hello. Regarding the Como Bluff area, I know the guy who manages those ranches. He is the one I met in Cheyenne last week where we saw the 844 run in front of the station. Neat guy.

I also agree, there is no farming out here. There is a reason we call this the “red desert basin”.

To everyone that thinks my approach has been kind of backwards. My professional licensed Archaeologist showed up this week for safety training. I have been dealing with the required safety training which is why I have not responded earlier. My professional Archs have agreed with my analysis of the problem but reserve judgement till they do diligence and make sure we are right. Getting the maps from the UPRR kind of helps out my case that I have the correct grade. The key point is when my name goes on the report and I am responsible for the results, I am confident that I know what is reported is correct. I did enough investigation and digging that I am not just signing off on others wo