I have an 027 locomotive # 2035 with dual magna-trac drive wheels from 1950/51. The tender has “Lionel Lines” on the sides and is stamped “6466W” in white ink on the bottom.
There are no wires running from the electrical pickups on either truck. There is a black wire attached to the cardboard covered copper cylinder on the left rear of the whistle unit (looking down on the tender with the locomotive at the top) that is not attached at the other end. Perhaps this is the ‘hot’ wire that should go to the pickups? I think the other black wire runs from the same location (the black screw on top) to the motor.
I can’t find the answer in Greenberg’s Repair and Operating Manual for Lionel Trains, seventh edition, but then I’m not much of an electrician.
Can anyone tell me how to repair the wiring so the whistle will work? It’s paired to the Lionel 1033 90 watt transformer with whistle control.
The “copper cylinder” is the whistle relay. It lifts up an armature that closes a contact when the transformer mixes a little DC voltage in with the AC voltage to the track. The contact connects the whistle motor to the track voltage.
On the side of the relay are two terminal strips. The inner one is part of the relay contacts and is grounded to the tender’s frame when the relay closes. That terminal should connect to one end of the motor’s field coil. The other end of the field coil should be wired to one of the motor brushes. The other brush should have two wires going through the holes in the floor to each of the pickups on the trucks.
The outer terminal on the relay should be connected to that latter brush. It is connected to one end of the relay coil. The other end of the coil is grounded to the relay frame and thus to the tender frame.
Uh, thanks, Bob. Huge learning curve here; I also tried to download a .jpg but can’t get that to work either.
Anyway, all the wires you mention appear to be present and attached except one. It comes from the top of the rear copper cylinder. I think it must go to the rail pick ups; it shows no evidence of old, broken solder, so maybe it just broke and the rest is missing from underneath the car. What do you think? Just remove this wire and replace with one that runs underneath and branches to each pickup?
Sorry for the confusion. This is why I’ll probably have to have pros do most of my repairs.
Here are all the wires, numbered in case we need to refer to them further:
W1 Terminal on top of relay closest to relay frame–to–one end of motor field coil
W2 Other end of motor field coil–to–brush closest to field coil
W3 Brush farthest from field coil–to–terminal on top of relay farthest from relay frame
W4 Brush farthest from field coil–to–pickup on front truck
W5 Brush farthest from field coil–to–pickup on rear truck
Notice that W3, W4, and W5 all connect to the same motor brush. W4 and W5 must be flexible. Allow enough slack under the tender that the wires do not have to bend very much as the trucks turn. You will find holes to run the wires through and probably some slits stamped into the tender floor that are meant to hold the wires in place against the underside of the floor.
By the way, the “copper cylinder” is actually an iron core with a coil of enameled copper wire wound around it and concealed by the paper covering. The copper that you see is two copper washers at the bottom end of the coil.
Are you referencing the No. 2671W tender whistle on page 647 of Greenberg’s manual?
Mine is the WS-125 whistle on page 645. The two wires that are soldered to solder lug WS-142 on top of relay WSR-1 are not connected on the other ends. I think one goes to the lead on the cylindrical shaped object to the right of the wick WS-146. The other to collector shoes?
The wire from the angled connector on the left side of WSR-1 goes to the solder lug at 6-32 hex nut SC-99.
The wire from the adjacent straight connector on the left side of WSR-1 goes to the cylindrical shape mentioned above.
A bare copper wire goes from the OTHER cylindrical shape to the motor coil.
Another bare copper wire returns from the coil to the hex nut just below this cylinder.
All wires appear good except for the two from the relay WSR-1.
Hope this helps. Sorry to be so dense, but I did mention I know little about electronics.
Hey, I finally got the photobucket.com thing to work! Here’s a photo of the whistle. The two wires farthest right are not connected. I thought mabe the frayed ended one farthest right might go to the collector shoes. The other one either goes to the cylinder on the right, or more likely, the hex nut just above it.
Okay. I have located the same plastic version of the whistle in a 1950 2426W. (The metal whistle is different.) Let’s assume for now that everything else is wired correctly and in the original way. You have two loose wires, which I believe are soldered to a lug on the same screw that mounts the relay. From your picture, it looks like you have only one hole in the floor. One of those wires should go through the hole to the solder lug on one of the trucks. The other wire should also go through the hole, to the solder lug on the other truck. If you do happen to have two holes (The 2426W does), use the hole closest to each truck.
Great, I think we’re getting somewhere. When wired as you suggest, there is a buzzing sound from the motor or relay when the whistle lever on the transformer is thrown, don’t know which.
When open, the contacts on the whistle relay are 1/8" apart. The armature on the whistle relay does not lift up with whistle lever on transformer. When lifted manually, the whistle blows.
I’ve cleaned the contacts with emory board and sprayed the motor liberally with WD 40 and a quick drying spray on electronic cleaner.
Do you think it would help to reduce the gap between the whistle relay contacts?
That’s what I would do next; but it worries me that you say that the relay armature does not move.
I would have advised you not to use anything so abrasive on the contacts. Where did you spray the WD-40? If inside the motor, you’ll need to get it out. If on the commutator (the three-segment copper disk at the end) or the brushes (the carbon rods that press against the commutator), take off the brushplate and clean it as thoroughly as you can. You should use only a few drops of oil on the bearings at each end of the motor armature.
Yeah, that relay armature doesn’t move at all with the whistle lever, so I don’t think adjusting the gap would help. The armature ‘jumped’ a time or two when the direction lever was bumped, but that’s all.
I cleaned and oiled as you recommended. The motor and whistle work fine. The whistle relay must be shot.
We haven’t made the whistle work, but I think you’'ve help me isolate the problem. I may screw up the nerve to replace the relay myself. If not, I’ll have it done when the locomotive is overhauled. If you have any revelations, let me know.
Thanks again for all the help. A lot of my family is from TX, AR, and OK. Still have some relatives scattered over the great state.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
Charlie
I don’t care who’s in Austin, Bob Wills is STILL the king!
Charlie, the problem may be in your transformer. The whistle control has two stages. First it connects a copper-oxide rectifier and an extra 5-volt secondary winding in series with the output, giving a strong DC component to the output voltage intended to make the relay operate. Then it shunts the diode with a resistor, to restore some of the normal AC voltage and reduce the DC to just enough to keep the relay operated. The fact that it has occasionally worked makes me think that the whistle switch in the transformer may be dirty or its wipers bent. You probably don’t have another transformer you could try to see if that’s the case, do you?
Since you have the book, why don’t you look at the 1033 section, page 539 in my edition, and see whether you can match the diagram to my description. Then you might be able to look inside and see whether the switch seems to be doing what it is supposed to.
Thanks, Bob, I’ll do that. The other day, while I was on the forum, the transformer handle got stuck barely on the whistle position (nothing active on the tracks, though) & overheated. Nothing seems permanently damaged as the transformer still works.
You’re right, I don’t have another transformer. I’m actively bidding on ZW 275’s on eBay. Trying to get one at bargain basement price - that happens sometimes. Wish me luck.
I was just reading Ray Plummer’s “Questions-Answers” column in the February CTT and came across his assertion that all Lionel whistles were wired the same way. From my experience in advising Charlie, I think I can say that that is not true.
The 1950 6466W, which came with the 773 that year and had the plastic whistle, appears to have been wired with the frame of the relay connected to the pickups instead of grounded to the tender frame as he says. On both Charlie’s and my tenders, it is wired that way; and my wiring certainly looks original. This is not to say that Lionel couldn’t have done it both ways; but we have at least two examples here of this arrangement.
I also noted that he assumed that the questioner’s whistle was plastic. He must either have been unaware that the metal-whistle version existed or perhaps had other knowledge of his tender. In any case, the metal whistle would have to have been wired as Plummer describes.
Charlie, I did not read here anyone advising you to make sure you get “SuperFlex” wire for the whistle. If you get wire that is stiff, it will either limit truck mobility, or crack from flexing beyond its capabilities. You can get this from any of the parts dealers listed in CTT.
just a quick point, the whistle in the picture has felt wick tube above the brushside shaft bearing (well where the shaft goes through the brushplate). You should sparingly oil that wick from the top. There is a little hole up there for that purpose. That should keep you from getting oil on the commutator face. You have to take those plastic whistles apart to get at the backside bearing unless you can see/access it from underneath by seperating the whistle from the tender base. Don’t use stiff wire to the trucks and don’t be to sloppy with the solder as you may get a short down there if you have any stray globs of solder once the roller contact starts moving up and down etc.
