In a couple of weeks I plan to spend several days in Philadelphia, my first visit ever. I’ll see the main sights, of course, but I also want to spend a lot of time experiencing modes of transit we don’t have here in Chicago, such as trolley and TT. I’ve already ordered a Septa map (not cheap) but am looking for some add’l experience and opinions.
These are some question****s I have:
Are there hotels/motels near rail transport that are safe (neighborhood, hotel and transit stations alike) and would be cheaper than staying downtown?
It is Septa that operates a commuter line on the old “Main Line” - Ardmore, Paoli, Bryn Mawr and etc.?
Does Amtrak now operate the old “Silverliner” territory? Is the new equipment worth a look-see in and of itself? Is there somewhere to go that might provide an hour or two’s diversion as an excursion without having to go all the way to Harrisburg?
In Chicago the L is still the L even when it’s running subway. But I understand in Philly there are subways that later go aboveground (more like New York). Is that what they are called – subways?
What are the prettiest trolley routes? I vaguely remember from an article in TRAINS about a year ago that some of the trolley routes included former interurban trackage. What’s the best one for a “country in the city” sort of feel?
Are there neighborhoods I should avoid – not go to after dark, never enter, etc., as a security matter?&nbs
I’ll get you started by answering the questions I can.
SEPTA runs the Main Line trains, and all the remaining Pennsylvania and Reading lines.
The old SILVERLINER trains to Harrisburg are Amtrak. They are AEM7s, Amfleet cars, and a Metroliner cab car. Be aware, most of the SEPTA trains are SILVERLINER equipment now. There are only a few trains with a locomotive and coaches.
In Philadelphia the Broad Street Subway is a subway. The Market/Frankfurt El is both an el and a subway. PATCO is the Highspeed line.
I know that the River Line is right by the SEPTA/Amtrak station in Trenton… I can’t tell you about the Camden side.
My favorite trolley rides are A) Sharon Hill or Media Line to Drexel Hill. Then watch the cars come in before taking one home. B) Norristown High Speed Line to Villanova, then watch the cars go by and go back. Both leave from 69th St Terminal in Upper Darby.
Like any major city, Philly has a lot of great and a lot of terrible neighborhoods. In very general terms, North Philly and West Philly are not as safe as South Philly or Center City… but these are tremendous over generalizations. Be safe and smart wherever you go. Don’t be at Amtrak’s North Philadelphia station after dark.
the Patco line as I remember runs across the Ben Franklin bridge and down to about Lindenwood the last time I rode it. You can get it from a couple of the Market ST. subway stations downtown. At that time you could basically go down the steps and catch the RDC on the old PRSL to the seashore.
You might try for a hotel in South Philly by the Stadiums - within walking distance to the SEPTA Broad St. Subway - or perhaps the Airport where you can get a shuttle to the Airport and ride the SEPTA airport train to Center City (downtown is called “Center City” in Phila)
The SEPTA suburban lines operate former PRR and RDG electrified lines. They operate Budd Silverliner IIs and IIIs of PRR and RDG heritage, GE Silverliner IVs (SEPTA purchase in mid-1970s) and some AEM7s with Bombardier coaches (early 80’s lease)
SEPTA operates over Amtrak’s ex-PRR mainline west to Paoli and on the NEC between Trenton and Newark DE.
The old “Red Arrow” lines out of the 69th St terminal are interesting rides. They include the Norristown “high speed” interurban line.
Philadelphia has 3 subway lines. The Market St. Subway runs E-W from the Delaware River to th 69th St terminal. From the Delaware river, it runs elevated to Frankfort. It’s known as the Frankfort Elevated along this portion. It also runs elevated thru West Phila, although it’s still known as the Market St. Line there. The equipment is rather short and narrow, like the old IRT cars in NYC.
The Broad St subway runs from the stadiums in S. Phila to N. Phila - subway all the way. A portion of the route has express and local service.
The third line is the PATCO High Speed line to NJ that runs as a subway in Camden and Phila. It connects with the Market St line at 8th St and Market. and the Broad St. line at 13/14th St and Locust.
You can take the PATCO line to Camden and transfer to the NJT River Line to Trenton. You can also take PATCO to Lindenwold and catch the NJT Atlantic City Line.
You can make a couple interesting “circle trips”. Start at 30th St Station and take SEPTA to Trenton. Walk over to the NJT River Line (a few hundred feet) and take it to
You may know this already, but if you go to Philly, you might notice that the suburbs have familiar names: Argyle, Berwyn, Bryn Mawr, Granville, etc., also stops along the CTA Red Line. I was told that the developer(s) of the far north side of Chicago, early in the twentieth century, named the E-W streets after them. Since I grew up in the area, I always wondered whether there was a story behind this, such as they were trying to impart a sense of class to the area, or if it was just a lack of imagination. I also wondered whether the other E-W streets without stops were also named after Philadelphia suburbs (Devon).
You guys have been so generous with your directions, experience and proposed iteneraries. It’s great and just what I’ve been looking for. Keep the advice coming in! Along the way I’ve picked up a couple of questions to supplement my (admitted large) list to begin with. I hope I’m phrasing these correctly:
What is the (political, financial, whatever) relationship between Septa and PATCO? In Chicago the CTA runs all local bus and all RT, including the lines that run to Skokie, Evanston and Wilmette; and Metra is responsible for commuter rail, including the electrified (ex-IC) line to Governors State University. Is the function of PATCO to Septa roughly that of Metra to CTA? I’m guessing not, because it seems that it is Septa, not PATCO, that runs (regular RR) trains from Center City to Trenton. So I guess I’m tripping over my own verbiage but it will be important when times to make circle-tour plans arise (more later).
In Illinois, public transit roles are well-defined but also are highly politicized, as many of you have read. Does the Phila. area go through these “crises” of funding regularly, as the Chgo area just has?
If I got my facts straight, I should be secure in my knowledge that PATCO runs one of the three Phila. (subway, el, whatever) RT lines? If this is true, do PATCO and Septa accept each other’s fare cards or allow for free transfer to each other’s RT lines?
If PATCO operates commuter trains over the old Phila. “main line” as well as the (exx-Penn Central) part of the NEC, what agency should I use to get from Center City in Philly up to, say, Newark or Pen
There really is no relationship between SEPTA and PATCO.
PATCO is a creature of the Delaware River Port Authority, the joint PA/NJ agency that runs the Delware River bridges, Penns Landing, etc. PATCO runs on it’s own right of way, and doesn’t interchange with anyone.
SEPTA is the Pennsylvania agency charged with operating mass transit in the Philly Metro Area, the Regional Rail, Subway, El, Norristown Highspeed Line, and buses.
I know that last street you mentioned well; it’s my closest bus line.
Maybe it’s Chicago’s revenge, but around here the street is always pronounced de-VONN, not DEV-in. And the stories of sign-painters misspelling “Bryn Mawr” are legend!
I think you’re probably right, some enterprising developer must have platted out the streets with Main Line-Phila. names for that “touch of class.” - a. s.
I’m an outsider from SoCal, but I have explored a little bit of Philly. 30th Street Station is a little bit bewildering at first, because the ticket areas (Amtrak, Septa, NJ Transit) are all in slightly different areas. Allow some time for making connections if you’ve never been in the station. Also - there’s a food court inside the station with a decent variety - explore before you buy!
I’ve ridden Septa round trip from Phila 30th St to Paoli - kind of interesting riding along the old PRR main line. From an outsider’s perspective, the Ardmore station looked a lot more inviting (as in ‘welcoming looking area’), but that would have been a shorter ride than Paoli, so I elected to do the max in the time I had available. [Amtrak also stops at Paoli, but with infrequent service I couldn’t ride those trains as I was doing this trip as part of a Winter turnaround day trip from BWI].
SEPTA has staffed ticket windows (up the ramp & around the corner from the main waiting room). I did not see ticket vending machines (TVMs) for SEPTA. However - for New Jersey Transit (route to Atlantic City) - all they have is 2 TVMs, tucked next to a waiting room pillar.
Safety - some areas of Philly are definitely dicey-looking (as seen from the window) - for example the North Philadelphia area (NJT) - not real inviting - though there are some cool structures like old towers and signals. Same thing for the SEPTA route to Paoli - the route segment within Philly City Limits looked kinda depressing. Large empty lots where manufacturing firms used to be, and no new companies moving in (yet) to take their place. Once you get to the ‘burbs’ it looks a lot better, though it’s all passenger-related; not much in the way of freight customers.
Septa has been under financial pressure for some time; when I rode to Paoli (around '04) there were a lot of notices posted in the station about potent
I noticed in mistake in one of your responses. PATCO does NOT have anything to do with trains on the PRR mainline.
PATCO = Lindenwald HighSpeed Line only - nothing else.
NJ Transit = Atlantic City trains on ex PRSL track and River Line light rail on old PRR (well, a lot more, but that’s all they do in Philly, unless you are also a bus guy).
SEPTA = Pretty much everything else… All commuter trains on ex Reading and PRR lines in Pennsyvlania and Delaware… Broad St Subway, Franfort/Market El/Subway… All streetcar lines… Sharon Hill/Media wide guage streetcars, Norristown High Speed Line
Also, while trains from Trenton to Philly are frequent, you need a reservation on Acela.
Finally, the PATCO Lindenwald Line is above ground when it crosses the river. If you are only going as far as Camden, you’ll get some scenery when you’re up on the bridge.
Previous posts: al-in-chgo: [is] pronounced de-VONN, not DEV-in. And the stories of sign-painters misspelling “Bryn Mawr” are legend!
Eastside: They could have really driven those Midwesterners crazy with Bala-Cynwyd.
al: I vaguely remember a high-school friend-of-a-friend whose boyfriend came from Bala-Cynwyd, PA. I believe it rhymes with “Pal-a-skin-did” How close am I?
Otherwise, it’s Welsh to me [:-^] !
PS: Thanks as well to MP and EL for their invaluable contributions. Things are really beginning to gel for us.
You are all avoiding the obvious one that spearates us locals from the world and that is the pronunciation of Schuylkill. Us locals say “Skook-ul”. Now that I am a midwesterner people don’t like the way is say water or when I ask for a soda and I would die for a decent cheesesteak or some Bassets ice cream in Reading Terminal or a soft pretzel from one of the bums on the street corners.
Just for reference purposes, I thought you might be interested in a trip I did in 1977. This was before the River Line or the Atlantic City trains from 30th Street.
Start West Trenton - Rode Conrail Silverliner to Reading Terminal (today would have been SEPTA Silverliner to Center City).
Rode Market/Frankfort El to 69th St Terminal in Upper Darby.
Rode Sharon Hill/Media streetcar to Drexel Hill.
Rode Sharon Hill/Media streetcar back to Upper Darby.
Rode Norristown High Speed Line to Radnor.
Rode Norristown High Speed Line to Upper Darby.
Rode Market/Frankfort El to 8th Street & Market.
Rode PATCO Highspeed Line to Lindenwald
Rode PATCO Highspeed Line to 8th Street & Market.
Rode Market/Frankfort El to 30th Street.
Rode Conrail Siverliner to Trenton.
Rode Conrail Jersey Arrow to Metro Park.
Now, this is not the itenerary I would do today. I would chose more of the round trip options (going out on one line and back on another), but this is to show what is totally possible in a single day.
I grew up in Philly and rode the Reading to Hatboro, the Pennsy to NYC, the trolleys from he north end of the Broad St subway to Willow Grove, the #15 PCC cars along Girard Ave, and the Market St subway and Subway/Surface cars.
Recently I visited but didn’t get to ride any rails. A taxi or car-pooling was more practical for my 50th HS reunion at Girard College. But, if you are over 62 (or 65?), be aware that the PA lottery pays for greatly reduced (or even free) off-peak rides for Seniors on SEPTA stuff. Check the SEPTA website. Get the required pass at the SEPTA offices at 13th and Market, just east of City Hall, south side of the street.
I live in Philly and can make some observations. If you want to ride the PCC cars, then your going to need the ride the EL to Girard Ave. My suggestion is to ride up to the Philly zoo. It goes through some rough neighborhoods but the zoo is generally in a decent area. You can also watch Amtrak, SEPTA and shared assests freights (ex conrail/csx motive power).
As others have stated, if you go to 69th street Terminal, you can ride the old P and W which is an interurban (now known as the route 100). We also have the routes 101 and 102 which are the old Red Arrow division trolly lines using double ended kawaski equipment. The route 101 runs right down the middle of state street in Media PA (at the end of the line) much like the South shore line except it uses light rail equipment.
Id suggest staying out of Camden completely. Walter Rand Transportation center is downtown however all of Camden is a warzone.
If you want to take a day trip, and dont mind losing a little bit of money, go to Atlantic City for the day. You can take NJ Transit’s Atlantic city line and I believe they offer a jitney to the different casinos. Also if you dont want to wait around for a train, the train tickets are interchangable with the NJ Transit’s Atlantic City to Philly bus line.
Thanks, everyone, for your succinct and useful recommendations. I was able to draw on many of them in my recent trip to Philadelphia and New Jersey (Newark area).
If you’d like to read a summary of what I accomplished, go to TRANSIT and look at my new post (October 16) regarding Train-Riding. - a. s.