I’m planning a small layout (5x11) and would like to add hidden staging, but am having difficulty figuring out how. Has anyone tried hidden staging in a small layout?
hi,
a 5x11 is not very small, even quite some space in N-scale.
I see a reach-in issue; anything more then 30" away from the edge is out of reach. Not easy for building and maintaining the layout; coupling and tyrnout-control could be issues as well.
Underground staging will need a long grade. A 3% grade dropping 6 inches will take 17 1/2 ft, not counting vertical easements nor compensation for curves. Keep in mind you probably would like your hand to take cars out, the road and subroadbed will take some vertical space as well. When you want staging as part of a continuous run you would even need 2 of those grades.
Not uncommon are staging tracks hidden in a huge building. Or having no staging at all; an interchange could be a handy stand in.
Reseach of the MR-trackplan file would give you some examples.
Paul
You could build the staging at the same height as the rest of the layout, along one edge, and then use a view-block to separate the staging from the rest of the layout. Make sure, though, that you have full access to your staging tracks, both to fix derailments and to let you make up trains easily.
In their current “project layout,” MR has a track that runs to the edge of the layout. That attaches to a thin, temporary 2-track “staging yard” which is only in place for operations. That’s a simple solution for those layouts which don’t “own the room” and must be mostly confined to a smaller space.
Other layouts, particularly in basements, make use of closets and laundry areas by running a tunnel through a wall and putting the staging on the other side.
The first rule of any staging is that it has to be large enough to accomplish what you want out of it. I would not start with the goal of making it hidden, but rather of making it useful. Do that, and there are various ways to make it hidden or at least unobtrusive. And you never want it so well hidden that it is also impossible to work with.
Nor with a layout of your size would you want to do anything that would cost you actual layout space, much less cost you even a few inches of useful staging, just in the effort to make it hidden.
Even a very small layout can benefit from staging. One example is simply running a track off the end of the oval onto a narrower strip of benchwork, which sticks out from the layout like a handle on a sauce pan. That assumes you have that extra room (which can hug a wall) and are not using it for the layout of course. Model Railroad Planning has from time to time featured short articles by Tony Koester where he adds that kind of staging to a simple track plan , even one from an Atlas plan book, just to show it can be done.
Also, on the smaller layouts sometimes the most useful form of staging is “active” staging where a yardmaster is constantly adding cars, taking cars off, rearranging cars for the next train out, making room for the next train in, and so on. Active staging rarely combines well with hidden staging in any but the most huge club layouts.
So we need and want staging. But hidden? remember “hidden” is not the same as making its “exit” from the layout unobtrusive. For example you could run it through a tunnel portal (but what if you don’t want a hill there, or what if tunnels were not on your prototype)? Another classic technique is to run it under a highway overpass, or into a cut of
Welcome aboard.[#welcome]
I vote with Mr.B Layout level staging behind a view block.
The reason for “hidden” staging is my desire to run long modern trains in trainwatching scenes. I know this is difficult in a small layout, but that’s my aim.
Do you have a track plan? If so, post it up, and we can see better what your benchwork and track look like.
I don’t have a plan because of the problem. I would let the staging solution drive the design to an extent, i.e., twice-around, out-and-back, etc. It must be an island with 1 side against a wall. I would be willing to tackle challenges such as a helix. Due to the modern equipment, it must have 24" min radii.
hi,
at least make a drawing of your room, with doors and other obstacles clearly indicated. And of course how you place your layout in that space.
I noticed earlier on, you did not mention your scale and you might have reach-in issues. You were not responding to these remarks at all. It is your job to get us going.
A layout by Byron Henderson, though with lots of switching, illustrates some points. Staging at the main level hidden behind a removable backdrop. (the blue line)
Since this layout is in N-scale all visible tracks are within a 30" reach. When your HO layout is placed with the long backside against a wall, the 5 feet of width will cause severe problems. If one of the short sides is against a wall, other and probably better footprints are possible.
The long track at the back illustrates clearly how much length is needed to get to another level with a moderate grade. You could imagine this line going down to underground (stub or loop) staging.
Wish you the best
Paul
The layout is HO scale and as mentioned earlier, it must be an island style with one short side against a wall. The reason for my apparent lack of response is that I am a “newbie” in the forum and my responses are delayed by having to be approved by a moderator. Thank you all for your comments. Hopefully, I will get some ideas. I would prefer a stub design, so I can better control train movements in the staging area, but would consider any solutions.
My layout area is larger, 29ft by 33 ft and I do use hidden staging, plus a “mole hole” at one end of my point to point Santa Fe. I have three decks, top is connected to middle by a helix, the middle is connected to the bottom by a long grade. The helix is hidden, the long grade is hidden but I have built in ways to reach the trackage for maintenance and cleaning.
I don’t run loopany loop trains, all are point to point, from staging to staging except for the top deck which has a large yard(s) area and then terminates in hidden staging.
Bob
If a helix works for you, it might be an option. If you aren’t sure of your woodworking skills, you might consider a pre-built helix such as those from Ashlin Designs or Easy Helix. Both offer kits from which to construct a helix, with a variety of configurations.
I would put the helix on the end against the wall, and start it inside a removeable tunnel section or other hiding scenery. The helix will take up some of the space below your layout, so you probably won’t have room for a staging yard with turnouts. Instead, consider a sector plate arrangement to select which staging track you’ll connect up. If it were me, I’d build a table on casters and use it like a transfer table, with alignment pins to line up each of the staging tracks with the bottom end of the helix. This would mitigate the clearance problem with having the staging directly beneath the layout.
Five feet deep against a wall? You will not be able to reach half of it. Good luck with that.
If it’s the long edge against the wall, yes, you’ll have a real issue with reach. The traditional reach distance is 30 inches. My own layout has a section 5 feet wide, and from experience, that 30 inch number is a pretty good one - workable, but awkward enough that you wouldn’t want to go further. If the short edge is against the wall, it should be OK. Still, if at all possible, putting the whole thing on casters so you can get to all sides easily is worth considering.
I support this statement, especially when talking about a small 5 x 11 layout.
OP: You might consider open staging with the one, two, or three waiting trains sceniced like they are waiting in a yard. Perhaps even a small ridge separating the tracks from the mainline, with the ridge as tall as the car tops with the view partially blocked by the spotty arrangement of some trees.
There is an old artists trick that if you want to visually push “something” into the background, put something in between you and the “something” to give your eye the ability to focus on something closer. With a ridge, some trees, and what looks like car tops in the background, the staged trains will look more like cars sitting in a sorting yard since your eyes will be focused on the moving train in the foreground. Use an overpass and more trees to conceal the area the locomotives will be setting.
There are probably better approaches for using the valuable space on a small layout than using it for hidden staging.
Hi newtsonkr –
So to summarize:
Your main goal is to run “long” (not yet clearly defined) modern trains in train watching mode. You want hidden staging to support this in some not yet defined way.
You have concluded you want a 5x11 foot island (which will need 9 x 13 feet of floor space, including 2 foot aisles around it on three sides), H0 scale and 24" radius curves.
What is a long modern train to you? How would you like to use the staging?
The most obvious way to make hidden staging on a 5 foot wide table with access to both the front and rear of the table would be to put up a sky board/scenic divider or backdrop down along the spine of the table, in effect splitting the table into two halves lengthwise - and then use the one long half as staging and the other half as the scene through which you want to run your trains.
Not hidden? Of course it is hidden - from the side of the table where the modeled scene is. From the staging side of the table it is visible and accessible;
But I would very strongly recommend first clarifying how you want the layout as a whole to function, and how the room you want to have the layout in looks, before thinking too much about where to put hidden staging.
And then possibly reconsidering scale and layout footprint - it is often not really a given that one must do H0 scale, a rectangular table, and a loop of track, even though most newbies start out by those assumptions - because that is the iconic image of a model railroad - just like the iconic image of a locomotive is a steam engine
Smile,
Stein
Thanks to everyone for all the great comments so far. The shape and size of the layout are driven by some requirements I have for the room and its size. I am aware of the various walk-around designs, shelf layouts, etc., and decided that the old-fashioned island was the way to go.
So far as train length goes, I think something along the lines of 15-20 cars with 2-4 locomotives would do the trick. Obviously, the layout design might drive that down, but that’s what iI would like.
Best case is I would like to build up a couple of unit trains, a couple of double-stacks, a passenger train and 1-2 general manifest trains, park them in staging, present them through the layout, and then take them back to staging.
The idea of hidden staging was to make use of every bit of the visible layout to use for scenes as there is so little area available.
hi,
wish you the best with your layout.
- without a drawing of your room I still think you might be aware of other possible footprints but you lack the knowledge to really explore them.
2)the length of the 12 to 15 ft long trains you’re dreaming about is highly unrealistic on a 11ft long layout. Probably 5 or 6 feet is possible, maybe a bit more on a train watchers double track layout.
3)You describe 7 trains, in a staging yard you will need a pretty long ladder with six #6 turnouts. With modern equipment, you are that new or shy that you are not very specific, a 24" radius is very tight.
4)all staging possibilities are explained to you by various posters, it is time for you to come up with something.
5)some math: a 24" radius is about 30% larger then a 18" radius. A 11x5 is about 30% larger in length and width then a 8x4. Now you know where to look, 1000’s of 8x4 plans with a 18" minimum radius are available, with and without staging. Just go for the one you like.
Paul
Okay.
First - if your primary goal is watching long trains run a smart move would be to go to N scale. Three engines and fifteen 50’ cars is about 10 feet long in H0 scale - the same train would be about 6 feet long in N scale.
A loop around a 5 x 11 foot table with 24" radius is about 40 foot long. Or put another way - in H0 scale you can drive your train 4 train lengths forward before it is coming back to the same spot. In H0 scale you can drive your train 6, almost 7 train lengths forward before it comes back to the same spot.
Or you can, in N scale, run with twenty-five 50 foot cars cars, or run with fifteen 89 foot cars instead of 50 foot cars, and be no worse off that you would be with fifteen 50 foot cars in H0 scale.
If you want to run with three engines and fifteen 89 foot cars in H0 scale, a train will be about 17 feet long.
Second - the challenges with hidden staging are descent grade (if it is to be under-table staging), room for a ladder to branch out to s
Your proposed trains of 15-20 cars and 2-4 locomotives are going to be as long as your entire layout, 10-11 feet. A helix will take up 4 feet, and any kind of staging ladder for a half-dozen tracks will be so long that there would hardly be any space at all for the tracks themselves. Given that, I don’t think a totally contained helix-to-staging solution will work for you.
Instead, I would consider temporary staging. Build a hinged platform on one long side of the layout, the full length of the layout and wide enough for all your staging tracks. Use curved turnouts for the ladder, to make use of the necessary curve off the side of the layout. You probably only have room for single-ended stagiing, with the ladder on one end, but you could instead have half the staging accessible from each end of the layout, and interleave the tracks.
This will give you staging without the grade, and will also allow you to use the aisle space when you’re not running trains. The disadvantage, of course, is that you will need to take the trains off the staging to fold it down. Also, access to that side of the layout will be limited when the staging is folded up.