Plumber was here tonight replacing the ignition unit on my furnace and I mentioned my plan to tear out all the ealls int eh basement, and mentiooned that there will be a bit of a job to it since there are heat registers along all the external walls, which of course need to be drained and removed, and then put back on and plumbed in after the new wall are up. He asked about the wall where the door is into the furnace room, I said I wasn;t planning on moving it, I thought it had to be so far out from the furnace. Turns out, when the doors are vented like mine, I theoretically as close as the boiler manufacturer specifies. So I can move that wall in a good 2 feet and STILL have plenty of room to move the water heater in and out around the boiler. Be about 20 square feet gained, 2 feet along the long wall , and the furnace room is about 10 feet wide. This makes my long wall along the bottom of my drawings 2 feet wider - where I was going to put the main yard. SO longer tracks, or make the ladder double-ended. Also adds 2 feet to the length of the lower left pennenisula, while maintaining the same ailse width.
Got some good ideas in the last post on my plan so far, so while I have little else to do this week while visiting family, I will redo it incorporating what I like - and adjusting the room size assuming I will move the wall. I doubt this will cost much, considering I am removing every other wall already, the additional will be just a tiny bit of the total. And they DO need to come down, far as I can tell so far, the exterior walls are just 2x3 walls with paneling nailed to them, no insualtion or vaopr barrier, and maybe not even secured to the floor. I want vapor barrier and some insualtion, and plain drywall so i can paint it sky blue. Witht he studs solid enough to anchor benchwork to the wall without legs in as many places as I can.
This really should be a question you only ask yourself. Only you really know what the benefits/liabilities will be. Possibly you were only thinking out loud; but, somehow managed to write it down on a blank piece of MR Forum paper to get your thoughts, like your ducks, in a row!
Can you post a current version of the plan with where you propose to move the wall?
Its been my experience with room additions and renovations, that once a contractor is on site with all of their equipment, tools, and labor, and will be doing a lot of renovation already, that moving a non structural wall isn’t a real big incremental cost, especially if you were planning on tearing out paneling and drywalling the existing wall to begin with.
But I’ve kind of lost track of where you’re at in planning your layout space
Building codes are different around the country, your plumber ought to know the codes as they relate to boilers, furnaces and the like, but then again, he may not be up to date on them. You cannot get into trouble by leaving them alone. They are grandfathered in. But if you fuss with them, the new code takes effect whatever that may be.
LION would work with the walls he has. Actually walls of LION are poured concrete about a foot thick, so they are not going anywhere. Can you imagine one foot thick poured concrete walls on the THIRD FLOOR. Well there they are. and the floors and roof are also poured concrete. As secure as a brick house. Well we did close down the windows, they were huge, built in the days of poor lighting and cheap energy. Still have big windows, but most of the space is now blanked out with 2" thick building panels.
Anyway, as I said, I work with the space as I found it. And then put the tracks on three levels.
This is actually Elmer’s (Gandydancer) last suggestion in the previous thread, and there are definite ideas in here I am going to incorporate, I just haven’t had much time to do the drawing.
The area in question is in the lower right. The two interior walls of that space. The vertical one is the one that can move 2 feet or so to the right - I need to measure exactly but it’s at LEAST 2 feet. The wall at the top of that space, I was already planning to move to the opposite side of the main support beam, so about 6 inches down. Unfortunately it can’t go more, because below that is the rather complex distribution system for the multi-zone hot water heat. It’s nearly flat against the wall, but it takes up more width than the furnace and water heater combined.
Hmm, I could make it a DIAGONAL wall… the entire space from the top edge of the door up to 1 foot away from the exterior wall is all dead space.
Randy, I think forum members would appreciate a drawing of the basement as it will be after all demolition work has been completed. I think only then can any ideas for a track plan can start to get serious.
But I understand that having a track plan in mind might help to decide where you want doors and walls.
You know, since you’re going to fill the entire basement with a layout, you’ll probably get the best options for a track plan if you just gut the whole thing, leaving only the first floor supports, stairs, and HVAC. Design with a clean slate. It sounds like you plan on doing extensive demolition already, so leaving 10% of your basement intact probably isn’t going to save you any real money anyway.
I’m not sure that I understand the problem with the heat registers, and why they’ll need to be re-done to accommodate new external walls. My perception of hot water heating is of only the pipes in the basement, and the actual heating stuff (rads) in the portion of the house above the basement.
Your plan to properly stud and insulate the basement is a good one. I did mine immediately after moving in (I needed a comfortable place in which to work while I finished the house construction - kitchen cupboards, interior doors and trim, etc.) and that area eventually became the layout room. It’s not heated or cooled, but remains comfortable all year round - and we do have winter here in southern Ontario.
As for the interior wall in question, I’d move it (not much additional work or expense) and I’d also make it diagonal as you suggest. That will ease the curves, but more importantly, improve the flow of both the layout and the aisle.
The only thing actually not shown in ‘final’ for there is that thick horizontal wall in the middle, and now the change to the furnace room in the lower right. There is another vertical wall already removed (from the plan, it’s still there IRL) between that horitzonal wall and the bottom, about halfway between the furnace room wall and the entry way on the bottom left. Next update will reflect these things. Everything else is a boundary that will stay, though ugly paneling removed and a nice wallcovering applied.
The basement is heated too, so along all the exterial wall are the pipes and registers for the basement zone. Since they are mounted to the walls I am planning to rip out and replace - they’ll have to come off and then replaced on the new walls. Re-used, rather - there’s no reason to buy new, they just have to be bolted back on the walls and the plumbing all reconnected.
Randy, why do you have to demo the baseboard (probably Slantfin 30) if they are already mounted to studded walls? Even if you are tearing out the drywall, they can remain. I have replaced the sheetmetal case/ covers many times and left the 3/4" pipe/ fins intact. You can also just snap a line a few inches above the heat and cut out the DW and replace. THis leaves enough to tape the seam. This will save the expense/ trouble w/ draining the basement zone. The boiler room wall should be a simple move. May even be possible to sawzall or catpaw the attaching nails and move. Just some modification to the short stub wall. Just make sure that the plumber is satisfied that you leave enough room width for service and future replacement of the unit. There should be adaquate space for accessing all feeds return, circulating pump etc.
Thanks for the explanation, Randy. Is there any chance that those pipes and registers could be hung from the basement ceiling joists, either permanently or temporarily while you replace the existing walls? That would save you the cost and trouble of disconnecting them, and then re-connecting after the new walls are finished.
As for building the new walls, I built mine the same as for standard house construction: on the floor and then stood-up. If you fasten an additional bottom plate directly to the floor (I used a Hilti gun, but concrete screws are probably a better option), and make the wall 1 1/2" shorter than the full required height, you can stand the constructed stud wall without hitting the ceiling joists, then lift it into place, fastening on both top and bottom. If necessary, you could even build the wall on the floor whereever it’s most convenient, and slide it along the floor to where it will be installed (even behind the heaters) then lift it into place. This obviously uses a little more lumber (I used pressure treated for the bottom plate installed directly atop the concrete), but it greatly simplifies wall construction and eliminates the need to toenail the studs in place.
A picture of the heat may clear up the issue. If you have to remove them, I assumed that “baseboard” system is used. There are many other options if the existing ones will not work/ fit properly after adding all the around the wall benchwork. It would be better to have the heat at a loweded position, however all the benchwork can affect the convection of the heat transmission throughout the space.
Good point, Bob, and one I hadn’t considered - the layout could trap a lot of the heat beneath it, especially if the area below is covered over to conceal storage or other considerations. I’m fortunate (in more than one way) that my room doesn’t require heating.
I see no reason why it won’t work to reuse the existing units - it’s just the plumbing and me don’t get along, so I will need a plumber for that part.
Benchwork will be over much of it, however what might make more sense is to have a toe rail along the outside edge of the layhout base and mount the heat register to that, so it will be near the edge (inset a bit for toe space).
I don’t think I can just work around them, the current wall covering is not drywall, it’s all paneling. And NOT paneling installed OVER drywall. It is paneling nailed right to 2x3 walls, the walls are mostly just nailed up to the ceiling joists. At least in the places I’ve looked up in the ceiling. I’ll learn more when I tear it out. There is no actual baseboard to which they are attached, the paneling goes right to the floor. Upstairs in the rest of the house, it’s more normal, and a wall could be replaced without removing the registers.
I don’t know that I absolutely NEED heat - in fact if a vapor barrier and insulation are installed - currently there is no insulation - it may stay warm enough to not need heat. It’s gotten down as low as 62 with the heat turned off, but part of that is because I still have to put weatherstripping around the new exterior door, there’s significant cold air intrusion there.
I do like the idea of building the walls flat and standing them up. And pressure treated where in contact with the concrete floor is definitely a good idea - I did that when I built a small platform in my old house to stand my servers on. Plus my toe nailing skills aren;t all that great - driving nails straight into things, no problem.
Randy, if “misery loves company” in your decision, I had to make a decision whether to move a wall that divided my future train room exactly in half. It was a VERY expensive wall as it was built for a recording studio and separated the mic room from the control room. It had acoustic insulation, staggered studs, the works.
Even though I gained 8’ rather than only 2’, the pain and expense disappeared fairly rapidly (it cost 1,000 dollars to remove!!!) once I was free to move on with my dream (well as space allows) layout.
If it’ll definitely give you what will make you much happier over the years after waiting so long for your dream layout it will likely be worth it. If you can build to that “old wall” before deciding if you need the remaining 2’ increase, is a possibility…maybe…
I see no reason why it won’t work to reuse the existing units - it’s just the plumbing and me don’t get along, so I will need a plumber for that part.
Benchwork will be over much of it, however what might make more sense is to have a toe rail along the outside edge of the layhout base and mount the heat register to that, so it will be near the edge (inset a bit for toe space).
I don’t think I can just work around them, the current wall covering is not drywall, it’s all paneling. And NOT paneling installed OVER drywall. It is paneling nailed right to 2x3 walls, the walls are mostly just nailed up to the ceiling joists. At least in the places I’ve looked up in the ceiling. I’ll learn more when I tear it out. There is no actual baseboard to which they are attached, the paneling goes right to the floor. Upstairs in the rest of the house, it’s more normal, and a wall could be replaced without removing the registers.
I don’t know that I absolutely NEED heat - in fact if a vapor barrier and insulation are installed - currently there is no insulation - it may stay warm enough to not need heat. It’s gotten down as low as 62 with the heat turned off, but part of that is because I still have to put weatherstripping around the new exterior door, there’s significant cold air intrusion there.
I do like the idea of building the walls flat and standing them up. And pressure treated where in contact with the concrete floor is definitely a good idea - I did that when I built a small platform in my old house to stand my servers on. Plus my toe nailing skills aren;t all that great - driving nails straight into things, no problem.
Aah! Almost like an electric baseboard heater, only harder to move. [:P]
The idea to mount them low on the legs supporting the benchwork should work to give you better heating, yet still keep them out of the way.
My layout is open grid, supported by 2"x4" framing and lag-bolted to the wall studs. The framework also supports a roughly two-foot wide shelf about 6" above the floor - this is used for storing train stuff, along with tools and all the other junk which accumulates over the years. The open grid benchwork overhangs the support system by 6"-10", so there’d be room for both heaters (if they were needed) and the feet of operators.
I’ve done it before - my entire under layotu area will be containerized storage (those plastic totes), all organized by some scheme, with labels. I don’t know if I am going to put doors on it, but with that slightly raised shelf there is indeed plenty of room to mount the heaters there. That way they are only a few inches back of the fascia, so the heat can still get out. With penninsulas it may not be feasible to put all of the units out along the edges, however with actual insulation in the walls and drywall rather than paneling as the wall covering, I may not need as much heating area. Being in the basement, if I need to get a few smaller units to replace a long one, I can always hit up one of the local liquidation places, or even the local Habitat for Humanity ReStore for someone else’s take-offs.
The obvious drawback is that it will make it very difficult to remove the layout, since all that pipework will be integrated into the benchwork. Only place it would really be an issue is on the right hand side, that’s the only wall with radiators that will end up having a penninsula - only the perimeter walls have radiators.
I’ve been busy drawing today. Once I get things uploaded I can post further progress and yes, I have all the walls labeled now. Walls drawn as I can make them, not as they are - the diagonal at the top of the furnace room helps out quite a bit. And applying bits of Elmer’s ideas from his last post in the other thread as ways to put in the branch line operation I want.
