HO model unit coal trains, how long is long enough?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

I’ve been in the mode of collecting quite a few of the nice Athearn upgraded MDC Thrall coal gondola’s. These were one of the bread and butter type of coal cars traveling Rio Grande rails in the 1980’s (my primary time period of interest). The real unit trains were typically in the 80 to 105 car range in length.

Home layouts especially are limited in size and passing siding lengths so obviously its a challenge to model long looking coal trains in HO. My last layout had minimum siding lengths of 18 feet and 10 staging tracks ranging from 18-24 feet. The Thrall gons are a tad over 7-inches in length so a 25 car train (just the coal cars) would be 15 feet. Add say 3 diesels and a caboose and thats about 18 feet. I plan on making the next layout with similar capacities when I get back into a house, so it looks like 25 cars is going to be the average max coal train.

One of the challenges is to model trains with that longish look, so for compromise between affording the cards financially and the trains offered, while the items are still out there on the market, I’m shooting for the goal of obtaining a minimum of 25 cars of each type that I am getting. Fortunately (or unfortunately for my wallet), Athearn has so far offered in upgraded MDC Thrall and Ortner cars at least seven types (unit coal trains), of which I’ll be building at least 5 trains. OUCH.

So I pose to the rest of you, how long does an HO model coal train need to be to capturer the look of a relatively modern unit coal train and still be practical?

2

As in anything else, it’s all in the perception. If you have a 4x8 layout, you can only add enough cars up to the limit of it not looking like it’s chasing it’s own tail. If you have a larger layout with 18’ sidings, then 25 cars is your limit. And then if you have a big enough layout, then go for the 110 car train. And yes, I’ve helped with the 110 car unit coal train at my RR club. A fellow member has that many Athearn bathtub gons (all BNSF…and the whole train fits in two of those A-Line bags), and we ran then all on our layout with 3 locos on the front (Atlas Dash 8’s), and I was at the end with two pushing on the rear (Athearn SD70’s). It was an experience, let me tell you, even with DCC. We had to use radios to communicate with so as not to “stringline” the train because we couldn’t see each other as the train was approx 70’ long (and our layout is currently only 60’ long).

The only derailment we had was when we were backing it into the staging yard to put it away. With 40" minimum radius curves and #8 switches on the main, it wasn’t as bad as I thought.

Paul A. Cutler III

Weather Or No Go New Haven

3

What I have heard is that a train that is longer than what you can actually see on the layout will “appear” to be much longer than it is.

So if you have lots of view blocks (cuts, tunnels, buildings, trees, etc.) then you could get away with a shorter train than if you have wide-open space.

Even given that, a train that has 25 cars or so will generally have at least one end out of sight of the operator, also giving the illusion of a longer train.

Its all about making the illusion work. If you layout is big enough, try the 25 car train and see how it looks.

4

If you use lots of curves and rock cuts that may help.

or

You could go with the Canadian National look to simulate long trains… Pile your cars at the bottom of a ravine or riverbed.

Fergie

5

Oh, yes!!! The wonderful advantages of N Scale!!!

Model railroading is, in essence, an exercise in illusion; instead of modeling in space we, in illusion, model time. You have already answered your own question: 18 foot passing sidings - 25 car trains. Your

is 18 feet and 25 cars long. I aspire to siding lengths of at least 15 feet which allows me to squeeze about 45 N Scale cars into that length. I, like you I am sure, wish I had space for mile long sidings so I could run 100 plus car unit trains but such a thing happening is beyond the pale of my expectations.

We can, however, create an illusion of time if our trackplan allows us to hide both ends of our train from simultaneous viewing; if we can make our 25 car train look like a 100 car train; nobody is going to pay much attention to the clock if they see the last unit of our train come into view after our front unit has already disappeared; how much time has elapsed? enough time to get our train past a given point. If I can’t see both ends of my train at the same time then who is to say that that train is not one hundred cars long. You can even give consideration to this when you lay out your sidings - it is unprototypical - I know; don’t tell me - to have our siding run through tunnels in order to break the monotony of our too-short mainline; avoid having your sidings run arrow strait and try to hide them behind structures, trees, an outcrop of rock, etc. Even a gentle bend following a streambed can go far towards the illusion of time, and therefore, distance and length.

6

I find that the looks improve if it is longer than two layout events, ie, bridge, tunnel, curve, crossing, large building. Any time your eye has to move three times to see it all, it looks longer. I have not made a study of this so I do not know if others have similar perceptions.

7

8

I think the advice about view blocks in the form of rock cuts, hills, tunnels, and even bridges is what makes all the difference. The first HO club I belonged to had a layout that was 140’ x 40’. When we got all the tracks laid, we ran a 50 car unit train of UP stock cars (this was in LA and it was the “Farmer John Special” that ran every three days in the 70’s). It was a long train, especially for those days, but it was…well, just not very interesting. You could see the whole thing at once and 50 cars you can see at once just isn’t that impressive. Now, once we started to get our mountains, cuts, and tunnels in, we found that a 50 car train was actually kind of interminable in that you spent so much time watching the cars go by you missed all the scenery. We found that running 25 car trains still gave the same illusion of length without losing the effect of all the scenery.

I’ve done the same thing with my current layout. I have a big hill and cut at one end, a smaller hill and cut on the other end, and the long mainline straight section in the back is going to be hidden by low range of hills that I hope to work into my backdrop. The whole layout is only 18 feet long but it’s suprising how long a 20 car freight looks even though I don’t have all the scenery completed. It’s all matter of scale, perspective, and illusion.

9

That is THE one advantage of N scale over HO, but it is off topic to this thread which is purposefully entitled HO unit coal trains. :stuck_out_tongue: I don’t model N because it is no longer user friendly to my eyes. It was good when I was 18 for sure, but I have to hold things to far away from my middle aged eyes now.

The discussion has turned into layout visual tricks but that does relate. I did find on my first garage layout which was smaller (16x19’ and 13 to 15 sidings) that a 20 car train was sufficient to look longish. After that I have had a goal to do that a little better and shoot for 25 car trains as a minimum, visual tricks or not.

10

Be thankful for long passing sidings and trains… Over here on my HO 4x8’ I have one passing siding which is enough for a consolidation, 3 40’ cars, and a caboose. Of course I’m planning to use a curved turnout in there so I can fit a 4-8-4 and 3 85’ passenger cars, which is about the maximum I’d run. Maybe 4 or 5 passenger cars to simulate a BIG train on the layout.

I bet that big boy and challenger I’m going to order are going to have fun on my layout…

11

If you can see both ends of the train at the same time it will look short (even a prototype train rounding the loop below Tehachapi.)

If you can only see one end of the train, it will seem to be as long as your imagination wants it to be (unless you are imagining six cars and can see ten.)

If your unit train simply runs a lap from staging to staging, arrange plenty of view blocks and ten cars can pretend to be 100. (If you have a layout big enough to handle 100+ car unit trains, plus other traffic, you are dismissed.) OTOH, if you ever stop in a yard for a crew change, or have a visible terminal where the entire train will be in view, you will have to suit the train length to the facility.

Now, ready for the curve? Unit trains that travel one way loaded, return the same way empty! To properly model this, you need two trains with identical (down to the car number) cars, one traveling in each direction. The alternative is a really fast, efficient way to load/unload a unit train.

As for me, I propose to have two pairs of unit trains, so when the mine switcher shoves all those empty hoppers past the tipple, the cars that will shortly start rolling out from under that tipple will all have the appropriate numbers - and full loads. The schedule is such that a loaded unit headed for Minamijima meets an empty unit coming back on the double track between Tomikawa and Satsuki - and the cars had better have different numbers, hence two sets.

How long are my unit trains? Not very. On the single track to the mine, with the road’s only articulated on the head end, one will fit handily into a five foot siding. For the area and era, that is prototypical. (Even the articulated won’t take much up a 40/1000 grade. This is a teakettle, not a Y6b.)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

12

There are a number of pictures in my Rio Grande books where you can see the whole train or virtually the whole train. They still look mighty long at 80 to 105 cars!

More often that not, on a model layout it you won’t be able to see the whole thing in one view.

How about removing the loads? I know in some situation for years, there have been track plans with loads in and out arrangements utilizing two trains. But I simply don’t see my self buying two sets of each of the unit trains I am planning on running. Its a large financial outlay about about $325 per 25 car unit train of Thrall cars or the CSDU Ornters. Right now I’ve committed to creating 3 unit trains of 25 cars each and 2 which are 30 cars. Not to mention I already have 36 of the Bethlehem 100-ton 4-bay hoppers (Walthers) and various old hoppers from Stewart and Atlas for 1960’s.

[quote]
As for me, I propose to have two pairs of unit trains, so when the mine switcher shoves all those empty hoppers past the tipple, the cars that will shortly start rolling out from under that tipple will all have the appropriate numbers - and full loads. The schedule is such that a loaded unit headed for Minamijima meets an empty unit coming back on the double track between Tomikawa and Satsuki - and the ca

13

Government schools???

14

I think ‘visual tricks’ as you put it are really the relevant point. It is obvious that you are not going to have a 100 car long train. So the question is, how do you make it look long. No matter how you cut it, it IS a visual trick. It depends on the layout, the angles that you can see from, curves, cuts, tunnels, buildings…the whole package. I would say that on one layout a 25 car train could look long, on another, not so much. It comes down to the perception of the train, which is hugely influenced by its environment, the layout. In simple, exaggerated terms, that 25 car train on a single oval, viewed from well above, is probably going to look pretty short. Put the same train on a layout where it is near eye level, with trees, rocks, bridges, and curves, and it will probably feel twice as long, or more. I have heard of people doing experiments like that, and asking observers how long they though a train was after it passed, the results were pretty surprising.

15

Good points Jeff and when I move into a basement, er house, I’ll be having to use those things to help make the look right. I’m at an inbetween time in my life, getting divorced, and hopefully find a house in the next year or two, then work on a new layout again.

Part of the motivation is to think about numbers of coal cars as a buyer, especially when these things seem to be on the market a limited amount of time, then good luck finding them!

16

That is a pain! I’m always trying to balance anticipated requirements, budget, and availability. I imagine most of us are. So whatever you do is going to be at best an educated guess. From looking at Joe Fugate’s videos, it looks to me that at 20-25 cars a train can appear much longer. These were not unit trains, I don’t know whether that would make things look longer, shorter, or neither. I’d be tempted to try to swing a few more than you think you need, if you end up not wanting them on the train a few sitting on sidings or in the yard won’t hurt.

17

I agree with Jeff above, try to get a few more than you think you need. Sounds like a train of 25 or so should do the trick, so maybe get 30 for each train you want to run.

I picked up 20 CP older style coal cars, used. Most had non-working dummy couplers, makes sense as these trains are not taken apart that often.

As for removable loads, here is a trick from MR: glue a large washer on the underside of the load and use a magnet to remove them. This will cut down on the handling of the cars. But the load needs to be pretty slim, just a bit of foam board or something cut to shape with some coal glued on top.

Good luck!

18

As most here have pointed out, some degree of visual trickery will come into play, as it does with most of our model railroading endeavours. Another consideration is whether you’re just watching the train, as a whole, moving around the layout (taking in the big picture), or if you’re actually running the train. My coal trains are limited, by passing siding length, to 12 34’ hoppers, a caboose, and doubleheaded Mikes to move them. Because of heavy grades and extreme curveature, plus the fact that I use “live” loads, an operator is “aware” that he’s running a long, heavy train, requiring careful operating practices, even though the train is only 13 cars long. I also employ view blocks and scenic distractions, but mostly, your attention is to running the train, not gawking at it. [swg] And, for your LPBs, sitting at a crossing while the train rolls by at 15 mph, believe me: it’s a l-o-n-g train! [zzz][;)]

19

Path and Jeff,

Thanks for the feedback. I am trying to go somewhat conservatively with the unit coal train cars because indeed, the Athearn HO Thralls are getting hard to find after about 12 months on the market. I can afford to get alot of them but it still requires alot of outlay and I try to spread the spending out over time. As it is so far I’ve managed the following:

-CSDU Ortner 5-bays (six 5-packs) 30 cars

-Union Pacific Thrall gons (four 5-packs and 1 coming), 1 pack D&RGW Thrall gons) 30 cars, this is all one “coal liner” train for Kaiser Steel pulled jointly by the D&RGW and the UP

-D&RGW Thrall “blue end” gons (four 5-packs) 20 cars [need at least one more]

-NORX Thrall “yellow end” gons (two 5-packs) 10 cars [need three more packs at least]

-PSCX Thrall “red end” gons (on order)

-D&RGW 100-ton 4-bay Bethlehem (five 6-packs plus individuals) 36 cars

Most of the Thrall gons are now sold out so I have to hunt down those that can’t be ordered by distributors. My minimum is 25 cars which would probably suffice for a home layout. I have to factor in alot of other things like the new Tunnel Motors coming in October and 89’ flat cars being released by Walthers and Atlas. This is 1980’s stuff at its best!