I am a faily new member of the Altoona Association of Model Railroaders (www.aamr.org) and like other clubs, we are always looking for new activities and events. Being in Altoona, I wanted some feedback from other modelers on a crazy idea…I’d like to set up and run a 100 car HO scale train around the actual Horseshoe Curve in Altoona, PA. I know, nuts, right? Well, it would take the collaboration and, frankly, sponsorship of many. Notably, Norfolk Southern would need to get on board. Also, some help from other manufacturers such as Altas, Walthers, etc to help with track, power supply, and the engines and cars themselves. The ultimate goal would be to have a manufacturer do a special run of cars for the train (pulled, of course, by several NS locomotives). Quite the publicity/marketing opportunity, I would think - both for NS and the model manufacturers. Maybe even take commemorative photos with a prototype train next to the HO train on the curve.
Eventually, the cars and locomotives as well as portions of the track could be sold via auction (online or otherwise) to help raise money for a charitable organization. Seems to me that MR and some of its sister publications would be interested in coverage as well.
OK, brutal truth time - get my head out of the clouds or could there actually be some merit to this? I look ofrward to your feedback…
Not a bad suggestion. I also live in Altoona, Pa. I have real doubts that NS would get behind something like that. I can’t imagine what it would take to get something like that together… It would be nice though. Can you imagine how much track that would take.
Interesting thought. And I too doubt you could get NS to allow it. Simply walking down the tracks is illegal. And we can easily get out of the way of a 3 mph train. But setting something up in the ROW? Sounds far fetched. But I wish you the best of luck. Jay
Try. May never know. NS might see this as publicity and bite. I would love to see seven SD90MAc’s pulling a 100 car train along the real thing. All the boosters for the power system might fill a semi, though. Make sure a locomotive has Sound Of Power, so it will be crawling and be in notch 8, just like the real thing!
Looking at the postcard photo above, it looks like the curve might be about 80 cars long. At 50’ per car, that’s 4000 feet. So, someone’s gonna have to come up with 4000 feet of HO track. At $4 a 3’ section, track cost is about $5000. That’s doable. There’s also going to have to be some sort of support for the track–say strips of 1/2 plywood. Then there’s the power supplies, some bus wiring, etc., etc.
All in all, it’s well within doable–cost at maybe $10,000.
I would think it best to run the HO track down the center of one of the tracks–partly for aesthetics and partly for physical support. Problem here is dragging equipment. OWW! Maybe then on the ends of the ties–less dragging stuff, I think. You know, it’s going to take a certain amount of time to assemble all this. It should probably have some sort of protective covering that isn’t removed until “HO day”.
I guess NS would see this project as “scary” and not see the PR possibilities. If it was my railroad, we’d do it. As far as safety goes, I think NS should use volunteers that they hire as min-wage or $-a-year employees for most of the “installers” and those people should be supervised by real railroad employees. I do think the biggest real impediment for this really excellent idea is the concept of lawsuit. If only volunteers could sign a lability waiver that would actually hold up in court, then the only impediment would be plain old bureaucratic fear.
Altoona, [#welcome] and what are you taking? I want some! [:D]
Just kidding, sounds like a fun project but as you know it would take a lot of work and cash. How where you thinking of laying the track and where, in the center of the line it self? Off to the side NS might go with it, big problem would be there insurance carrier.
Next would be the bench work? I first thought on the edge’s of the ties them self, but I am sure they are not level to the point a HO train could handle the grades. But I could be wrong.
How long is the curve? I wonder what the radii would be in HO? [:D] Fixed rear engine Big Boy would not look silly that is for sure.
Good luck and post again. I throw in 9 foot of code 100 if you make it happen.
Good luck getting Not So friendly to go along with something like that. Even though ti could be done without obstructing the right of way, they would still have to hold trains or have slow orders while people were workign near the active tracks.
I don’t see the point in doing it. Given the conditions at the HSC observation area, I’m guessing that $10,000 could be better spent there and would have a much more lasting impact and be meaningful.
Couldn’t the track be set up in the right of way of the 4th track that they pulled up in the 80’s. That way you could actually set up bench work and work on the track standing up. Just a thought.
Actually, the track that they tore out was the old track 2. It was between track 1 (inside track) and the current track 2 (middle track). You’d be between two active mainline tracks, which NS would highly frown upon.
To be honest I think you owuld have a better chance of dancing the tango with Elvis.
#1 NS is a real railroad a business a valid part of US commerce they would look at you and say yeah sure you guys can go play with your toys trains on our railroad we won’t mind loosing possibly millions in revenue in the time it will take you to do this stunt.
#2 you would not only need permission form NS but also from the Interstate Commerce Commission as they enforcement body of the rules of the transportation so to speak
#3. With the Patriot act in place see what happens f you try to take pictures of any railroad operations, this is a fact which I got first hand straight out of the mouth of a NS police officer. I sw him parked on an old siding near my house and I wanted to take some pics of an old plate girder bridge that has long since been out of service. I walked up to him and asked if it were ok and he informed me that taking pictures of any railroad operation was in direct violation of the patriot act, not always enforced but a rule non the less. He told me to go ahead and take as many pics as I wanted as he didn’t see the harm in taking pics of an old bridge as long as he didn’t wind up in any of them.
A novel idea I’ll give you that but you might get better traction out of maybe doing a scaled down version at the visitors center or something like that get an organization involved to perhaps make it a charity event so you get positive publicity. Don’t forget not everyone is as enthusiastic as we are when it comes to toy trains.
Martin I think you need to update your American English to Canadian English dictionary this guy wants to go around the whole Horse Shoe curve with HO track in 1:1 scale thats a heck of a lot more then $64 worth of track
This discussion reminds me of the publicity stunt planned by the Scalextric company (part of Hornby in the UK) to build a slot car track around the entire Brooklands race course, now out of use. When we did the voltage drop calculations we found that numerous substations would be required to have any running voltage at all, as the length of track and the resistance of the rail would eat up the voltage, the farther you got from the feeder inputs. Heavy gauge copper bus lines parallel to the track would maintain a minimum of 10 volts, but would cost more than transformers every hundred feet or so, fed by line voltage and extension cords. Low voltage DC goes away really fast in long transmission lines; that is why the real world transmits power over long distance in high voltage AC form.
Utter nonsense. You should have asked him if he had a copy of the patriot act with him so he could show you this alleged violation.
As for the question of running a model train around the real horseshoe curve, I would question the PR value in it, as no one could see it! If you run it in the ROW, it’ll be hidden by the rail, and even if you set up a track on the inside, you could only see it from the fence in the park. A fun idea, but ultimately impractical.
Ok…lets say he gets the funding and go-ahead…what will most likely happen?
It would be near impossible to put down a smooth surface for the track to sit on. Ties are not as uniform as you think.
The wind would most likely push the cars over.
There is the distinct possiblity that the couplers will fail (because of height differences) and that I can for-see multiple railroaders following the train and putting it back together as it climbs the grade.
A passing train would vibrate the sub-roadbed/track and trains, resulting in buckled trackwork (if fastened down) and derailed trains.
Oil and dirt from the ties and surrounding area wont help.
A runaway will result in a good laugh.
Sound comming from the locos (if that is part of the plan) wont be heard over nature’s song.
Is it worth 10000 dollars for a one-way trip along 4000’?
It will cost you 10000 more dollars for robaxacet.
Personally, I feel that your time would be better spent running that train at a Free-mo setup…where the layout size can easily handle that size of train.
I think there is an easier way. I would determine where on the slope from the curve to MG tower the trains were the same size as your N or HO trains. Same for the eastbound side for Kittaning Point. Then a forced perspective section of ballasted track(s) would fit in the scene and everything would be the same size while you and your trains remain safely ensconced behing the railings at the curve. You could do the same thing at the apex of the curve using the real scenery to support you models for all three locations. Three shots would give the impression the train was heading east or west appropriately. The one thing you will need to determine is if you can keep it all in focus. An alternate way would be to project the actual shots and place your models in front of them for a second shot.
Just had this thought. A better idea might be to set up a scale model of the entire curve. The whole thing, with no selective compression. it would take a very large space, but could be done. Think high school gymnasium over the summer. Set it up, open it for a few weekends, take donations, and maybe sell commemorative cars that were run “over the curve”. Viewers could stand in the “reservoir” and watch trains grinding up the mountain.
First, thanks to everyone for their comments thus far. I realize there are a number of impracticalities with the idea, but many could be overcome. The Curve is about 2375, so it is a fair amount of flex track (any manufacturers listening?? [swg] Anway, I am thinking benchwork would be built on posts - not the rails or ties themsleves as the prototype would certainly destory it. But if built on posts about 2 feet high spaced about 4 feet apart, then use 2X4 for the roadbed of the track, it could work and not disturb NS operations. 50 12’ pieces of lumber cut into 3’ lengths would take care of the risers. 200 12’ lengths would then be enough for roadbed. Assume that 24’ sections could be pre-fabbed then assembled at the curve on the risers. Thats about 100 prefab sections. 50 volunteers to connect the sections should be attainable.
THe real issue, imho, is the power. I like the suggestion of AC, but not sure how to make that work. Would rather stick with DC/DCC power and multiple boosters. 1 booster per hundred feet means 24 boosters, plus a way to get pwer to them. Maybe one of the DCC dealers could respond on logistics of that. Bus wiring could be prefabed as well, then “simply” hooked up on site. THen there is also the issue of the cables need to connect the boosters to each other. Nightmare, me thinks! Any other ideas for power? If we can get this figured out, the rest will come…even NS if all of the stars align.
Keep the input coming! Especially on the power side of things.
This falls squarely into the “Crazy Idea” category. It’s the kind of stunt that gives model railroading and railfanning a bad name. At best, NS would rightfully laugh at the idea, given the operational and safety concerns that have already been mentioned in this thread. The most practical response so far was the one suggesting you find a venue to construct a non-compressed model of the curve and run trains until the cows come home.
Sorry to play the grumpy old man here, but pop open a six-pack of common sense and drink deeply from it…
