I’m considering changing my mostly Athearn RS to metal wheels. Previous discussions knocked out Atlas (plastic axles) and favored, iirc, exactrail and perhaps reboxx over proto and Kadee. Jaybees seem like a good value, and I have about 180 freight cars, 32 streamlined and 18 heavyweight passenger cars to “re-shoe”, so looking for best price/performance ratio. Looking for your experience and what worked for you. Thanks- Mike
Hi!
Experience you want, well I got it!
Seriously, two years ago I replaced all non metal wheels on about 24 HO passenger cars and 200 freight cars. I did a lot of research - particularly on this Forum - and ended up getting Intermountains (33 inch for freight, 36 inch for passenger) in bulk off of Ebay. As the cars are all from the 40s & 50s, the size was right.
Most of the cars were Athearn, MDC, Walthers, and a whole lot of other brands - almost all kitbuilt. The installation was obviously not a big deal, but I also spec’d out the cars at the same time for weight, coupler height, etc.
A couple of things soon became apparent to me… The cars roll more freely (hence longer trains are possible), they make more noise (not necessarily a bad thing - if you like clickety clack), and the main reason I switched is that they don’t hold or collect dirt like the plastic ones do.
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
Mike,
Metal wheels are great. However, you need to consider axle length. I have converted all of my rolling stock and most of the Athearn/MDC/Accurail cars were able to use Intermountain wheel sets with no problems. A few special cars needed Reboxx custom axle length wheel sets. Before you start on this project, get a Micro Mark or Reboxx ‘tool’ - you might as well core out the journals and do this right from the start. My first cars used P2K wheel sets as the were inexpensive at the time($3.99/pkg). They are a lot more expensive now! They have some type of ‘engineering’ plastic axles, but roll quite free. My favorite replacement wheel sets are Intermountain - You can by them at discount in the $55-65/box of 100 wheel sets. I have used Atlas & Branchline wheels as well with good results. The Kadee wheels have that black coating on the treads, and a very soft plastic axle that will get ground up in metal trucks very fast. I have not tried Jay Bee’s other that locomotive wheel sets. I have converted all of my rolling stock, but have another box of Intermountain 33" wheel sets as I have been accumulating cars at train shows this past winter.
Here is the tricky part:
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33" wheels - freight cars with a capacity under 77 tons(that capy number)
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36" wheels - Freight cars with a capacity over the above figure. Also, most passenger cars.
Here is the URL for the Reboxx tool:
http://www.reboxx.com/Tools.htm
And here is the URL for the Micro Mark tool:
http://www.micromark.com/HO-TRUCK-TUNER,8241.html
Jim
I use Intermountain wheels almost exclusively. 33" for most freight cars. 36" for 100 ton cars, like coil cars, and big coal hoppers; and passenger cars.
The wheel sets are cheaper if bought in bulk.
Nick
I;m with Jim, no matter which one you decide on, make sure you use one of these first…
http://www.micromark.com/HO-TRUCK-TUNER,8241.html
ratled
ps - I use the Protos and really like them
I use the P2K ones for everything. They fit fine in Athearn, Accurail, and Train-Miniature trucks. Branchline already has metal wheels. I’ve never had a P2K wheelset that was bad out of the pack.
–Randy
Mike, why do you want to replaces your wheel sets? Do they have plastic axles, do not roll freely or due they have metal axles with plastic wheels? Is it because you been told or read they will keep the track cleaner?
If they have metal axles and plastic wheels and you want them to roll better get the truck tuning tool and try that first. I have a few Athearn Blue Box cars that I tuned there trucks and they roll great.
If they are all plastic, replaces them they will cause you a lot of problems.
Far as they will keep your track cleaner, here is my story. When I went to DCC I do have to clean the track more. So I started to convert over to metal wheel sets, I used Proto 2000 33" and 36" wheels. I have changed around 225 of the 300 cars I have. Track stays no cleaner now than when all of them had plastic wheels.
Far as the gunk on the wheels, when I was running cheap Tyco and Bachmann wheels I saw the grime. On my Athearn and Walther’s I have never seen the gunk build up. Better grade of plastic is the only thing I can think of. The PK wheels and tuning the trucks, my cheap Bachmann and Tyco cars roll and track as well as my better stock.
If you are having problems, then up grading may be the way to go. But, don’t just up grade because you think it is the thing to do like I did. I have spent around $521.00 on wheels, this hobby cost a lot to spend money on a none problem.
Cuda Ken
I want to eliminate extra cleaning associated with plastic wheels. I am aware that some deny that metal wheels will help. Yes, it can be a big expense for a perhaps questionable benefit. I guess I will do 100 wheels and see if I notice much of a difference. Thanks for all of your input. Mike
When I first joined the club a few of the senior members namely my buddy thought it would be a good thing for myself and a fellow newbie member to start changing out the clubs rolling stock to all metal wheels a Motion voted on before we joined but no one decided to take on the project. So the two of us started changing the wheel sets on some 3000 plus pieces of rolling stock. Well being as we got a deal on them from an LHS we had many different brands and sizes so our first task was separating and classifying which went where etc. Well the two green horns set up a system where we had a members son #1 remove the old wheel sets and push the then the car went to #2 where I used the truck tuner tool and installed the new wheels and to #3 where my buddy weighed the cars and check coupler heights and he tagged the ones that were not up to NMRA standards and put them aside. We knocked out almost 600 or so cars that Saturday. When the old geezers saw how much progress we made a few of them decided to help “boy that was fun” the next day. Where our production went from almost 600 down to less then 400 with four more bosses thrown in to help go figure. The best thing I can say is develop a system like we did and if you have a friend gullible enough to help out it at least makes the time go by faster.
Right now ever piece of rolling stock I purchase gets Intermountain or Walthers metal wheels trucks tuned and weighed and couplers check before it ever hits the layout or shall I say the staging yard for now. This way I know everything on the pike is good rolling wise.
I’ve used and would recommend Intermountain. I’ve also used P2k but they have plastic axles which seems pointless. Their way to insulate I suppose. I really like the extra free rolling, don’t mind the slight noise increase. Only down side is that the narrower Intermountain wheelsets “drop” slightly at turnout frogs that are slightly larger than needed (a la Atlas), not enough to derail or hop, but just enough to drop slightly and momentarily at slow speeds and look a little cheesy. Then again they are Atlas turnouts.
Lou
Curious why you think plastic axles are pointless? It’s slippery engineering plastic like the truck sideframes - they roll VERY well. The axle isn’t the problem when it comes to the track, it’s the wheels.
As for the Intermountain semi-scale wheels - it’s not the turnouts, it’s the wheels. The turnouts are designed for RP25 wheels, the semi scale wheels are narrower. Not true to scale - the Proto:87 scale wheels would NEVER work in an unmodified Atlas turnout, but the semi-scale wheels are a bit of a compromise. Narrower so they look better, but not so narrow that they need accurate scale trackwork. They ‘work’ (mostly) in standard trackwork, with a few bumps here and there.
–Randy
One thing that seems odd to me is how so many modelers can have different experiences with the same equipment? Is the QC that bad in this hobby, or could it be the age of the equipment? In other words the manufacture found and fixed the problem, or a new mold started a new problem?
I have a few modified Atlas # 6 turnouts I bought off E-bay when I got started. I now have around 20 that are stock and my Proto wheels have no problems with them. I did install one number 4 few weeks ago and the frog is to high, cars bump up, not down. I have not taken the time to sand down the frog yet, but no derailments.
New passenger station yard has 3 number 4 atlas turnouts, so far all the big engines and passenger cars I have ran through the turnouts have track fine. That includes A B Eries, Dash 9, GE AC 6000 and a Hudson steam engine and turnout is stock. Yet I have read count less times bigger engines will not run through a number 4?
Mike, good luck with your wheel up grades.
Cuda Ken
Actually plastic axles have a point. Two of ‘em in fact, one at either end. I just prefer the metal axle because the preferred manufacturing process for the P2k axles seems to be injection molding. After 25 years of familiarity with injection molding and the likelyhood of warp, the machinist in me wants good ol’ by God metal axles. A properly designed and manufactured plastic axle is no handicap, but since the truck frames of most common models are acetal resin the metal axle has nearly the same coefficient of friction a plastic one does. Add that to the ability to use the axle on staggered wheel sets to pick up current for caboose lighting and so on and I just prefer the metal ones.
As far as the drop I mentioned, I did concede that the Intermountains were narrower than usual (RP25). I do think the Atlas turnouts are a tad “loose” near the frog, at least compared to my home made turnouts. Point I was trying to make to the OP was that some slight compromises to appearance will show up when traversing such turnouts.
As far as Proto:87 goes, more power to those who choose it, but the “semi scale” wheels like the Intermountains are a good compromise for me. Better looking than RP25, but not too fussy about track.
Lou
My preference is for Intermountain wheels. Of all the wheels I’ve tried, they’ve always rolled the smoothest and had the best sound. Kadee wheels are fine, but I don’t know how that black coating will affect the track. The P2K wheels seem louder than the other brands and don’t have a real smooth sound, and I’ve had a couple that were a little wobbly.
When an entire truck is bad, I like to use Athearn trucks with the metal wheels. They roll very smoothly and freely, and have never caused me any trouble.[:D]
What rrinker is talking about is exact scale wheels. The P2K wheels are made to RP-25 standards, which have a tread and flange size that’s much larger than scale. For comparison, here are some 40" NWSL wheels for Athearn diesels:
RP-25
Proto:87
The RP-25 wheels look realistic enough for most people (myself included), and can tolerate some bumps and dips. But those Proto:87s would need track that was absolutely perfect to work well.
I changed wheelsets on over 800 freight cars and if I knew in the beginning what I know now, I would have bought many more Branchline or Intermountain wheelsets than I did. At first I bought a lot of P2Ks because they seemed inexpensive and had a good reputation. I have a rather steep grade at one place on my layout and I used it as a test track for rolling qualities. If the car rolled past a certain point, it passed, if not, the wheelsets had to be replaced. Many times the P2K wheels did not improve the rolling quality significantly, but Branchline or Intermountain did and the difference was often substantial. P2K axles have a stubby, short plastic point, Branchline and Intermountain have a longer, skinnier, pointier, shiny metal point. Whatever the physics are inside that journal box, the Branchline and Intermountain wheels just roll better. One case in point, I have 60 Walthers ore jennies and they rolled awful out of the box. P2K wheels were actually worse. I used Branchline and the cars now fly down the test track. I absolutely agree that every journal box should be reamed out with that Micro-Mark/Reboxx tool and then add graphite to the box. Ream out the journal, add graphite and use Branchline or Intermountain wheelsets, you won’t be disappointed. Jeff
When Randy said Proto:87 scale wheels, I thought he meant PK 2000 wheels that was 1/87th scale. I messed up on that one. I knew there where thinner wheels, but have never bought any. Sorry Randy.
I have only used PK 2000 wheels and have been very happy with them. Of the apx 1000 I have only had one bad set. If I where to buy any more cars, I may give Intermoutain a try if my LHS have them in stock.
Cuda Ken
Jeff, using graphite is risky on metal wheel-metal axle wheel sets as it can track across the insulated sleeve and cause a short that heats up the assembly enough to melt the sleeve or sideframe. I had this happen on a tender, so now I use only light oil. I think it’s also possible to get a buildup of graphite shed from trucks that could cause problems in turnouts, etc.
Hal
If you get rid of steel axles, magnetic couplers will work a lot better as they are no longer pulling the cars together by the axles. If you have cars like the old TMI ones they need an axle that is longer than the Athearn or Intermountain length. The short axle gives them a lot of resistance. So you need longer axles or different trucks. Accurail trucks with Intermountain wheels is a combination hard to beat. Steel axels with metal sideframes is not a good combination as the axle tip can wear quite quickly. The heavy wheels add weight on the lowest part of the car. This makes them track better. If you are not running through switches or uncoupling cars a lot, plastic wheels are good enough. Plastic wheels pick up dust from static charge on the plastic with a little time it turns into gunk on the wheels. If you put a lot of oil on your track you can get gunk on metal wheels also. There is just something satisfying about being able to flick a car with your finger and having it glide 10 or 12 feet down the track that metal wheels gives you. Enough rambling about wheels.
Hal- How was there enough current to melt parts? thx Mike
One thing to note - one size does not fit all! Although the variation by a couple thousandth in the Reboxx lien might be a tad too picky. For example, the P2K wheelsets have too long an axle length to work in Brnachline trucks - so if Branchline wheelsets work in a particular brand of truck, the P2Ks naturally would have not worked well.
I always check the wheelsets against the NMRA gauge before installign them - and one of the only ones I’ve found that were out of gauge were 2 total wheelsets across 15 Branchline kits (I think the bad wheels were in a Yardmaster kits, not a Blueprint). A little gentle twisting moved the wheel enough ont he axle to get it in gauge. I have no idea how many all-plastic sets that got replaced from dozens of Accurail and Athearn kits might have been out of spec, I just have a huge pile of them in one of my junk boxes. Whatever metal wheels are on the Bowser and Accurail RTR cars, so far those have all been in spec, but I only have about of those cars. I have a few Kadees - those are quite nice as well.
–Randy