What would al quita be after by blowing up a freight train? I guess they would be after the tanker cars right? Seems stupid to me.
I finally read the story by going to TIME’s website: www.time.com, and clicking on the title of the story,“Hobbyist or Terrorist”? The complete link to the story is:
www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040524-638410.00.html.
I take umbrage to equating railfan hobbiests to terrorists. Then we read about NJ Transit requiring photographers to get a permit to take pictures of its trains, equipmrent, or facilities last Thursday in the Trenton Times, and New York City wants to ban phtography in subways. There might be some hope on the horizon in that Mayor Bloomberg told the New York Transit Authority. there should be no reason to ban photogrphy on New York’s subway.
Banning photography of military equipment makes sense, but banning the photography of anything whose photographs may have been widely distributed in the past just doesn’t make sense.
You guys have seen too many movies. Terrorists will not use pin hole cameras in briefcases, they won’t have 1 million X zoom cameras…but they WILL do surveilance when planning an attack. How will this surveilance be conducted? The same way they live in this country… by blending in. They’ll try to look like a tourist, they’ll try to look like a railfan, try to look like they’re photographing something else nearby, etc…
I, too believe that if you’re on public property you should be able to photograph anything you like, but you have to remember the state of the world we now live in. Terrorists will do surveilance, they will photograph targets. yes, plenty of photos have been published, but unless you plan on attacking Penn Station, chances are your target has not, or not to the level of detail you’d need.
I work Nuclear Security for probably the country’s most famous Nuclear Power Plant (TMI). We are located 2 miles from a major airport, and a rail line runs through our property (with a spur into the plant for construction/repairs). Because of our proximity to potential weapons, we’ve gotten briefed on several plane and railfan buffs wo’ve been questioned after spotted taking pictures. Of course, we get plenty of tourists just to the plant itself, beacuse of it’s noteriety. Then these people wonder why, in this day and age when you just show up at a nuke plant asking for a tour, we want to ID and photograph you.
As for the rail line running thorugh the property, how hard would it be for a terrorist (or team) to board a train, and pilot it onto the spur into our nuke plant? Without going into too much detail, this why we have numerous derailers mounted on the line, as well as barriers that would need moved if we were to ever need rail access. A terrorist could stop the train across our gate, or damage track to derail a train, blocking access to responding police and emergency workers to the island. And then there are all the hazardous materials transported
Three comments:
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Almost ANY activity public or private is associated with terrorism. Using a cell phone, traveling on an airplane, moving your household goods, and using hand tools have all been definitively linked to a terrorist act in recent years (Madrid, 9/11, Timothy McVeigh, and the Unabomber).
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Railroads are vulnerable to sabotage, but that’s not the same thing as terrorism. Sabotage is intended to cause economic or military disruption (which can often be the same thing). Terrorism is intended to cause rapid political change. Sabotage is an additive act; each event degrades an enemy and even small events are useful if there’s enough of them. Terrorism doesn’t work unless each outrage tops the last one: a public rapidly gets inured to little catastrophes. Any event of lesser caliber than 9/11 would probably be non-motivational to the U.S. public at this point–it would at most reinforce, not change, the course of national policy–and a train derailment or bombing is unlikely to be big enough to match 9/11. Terrorist actions against railroads in the U.S. would very quickly look like sabotage in that resources would be reallocated to prevent them, but they would not significantly change national policy. For that, a terrorist has to do another 9/11 or something even larger. The technology of railroading doesn’t lend itself to that very well.
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A national ID card system for rail photography is more akin to a concealed weapons permit than a hunting license. A hunting license is a system of positive value that taxes hunters to pay for game-management programs: the hunter gets something of value. A concealed weapons permit is a system of negative value; it verifies the possessor is not a criminal and is allows him or her to engage in an activity that has great potential for harm. So first, a photography permit would weed out anyone with any errors in judgement in the past or any unfortunate associations. Second, it would probably be highly conditional wit
Mark, I’d have to take exception to your statement that terrorists are only looking to top 9/11 for the political reasons and not looking at sabotage. Terrorists want to harn the US no matter what form it takes. Of course a 9/11 style attack would be tops on the list, but how much economical damage could they do by taking out a few key rail bridges at once, or attacking other infrastructure such as pipelines, refineries, dams, electrical grids, etc… All of these targets I just mentioned are soft targets, with little or no defense. Anyone with enough dedication and the means could easily attack any of these targets at will. What’s stopping them from renting a ground floor apartment building in downtown NY or LA and filling it with explosives? Or walking into a crowded mall a week before christmas strapped with explosives or carrying weapons? Or simply pulling another Oklahoma City and driving a truck to any one of a thousand targets around the country, how about a school?
Terrorism is about one thing only: creating terror among its victims. If the attacks I mentioned above started to happen, and americans could not feel safe anywhere, even in your own home, what would happen? I’m not sure you could answer that question until it happens, but I don’t think it would be anything good.
Rail lines, power plants, dams… they are all a means to an end for a terrorist. They will use any means neccesary to lash out at what they see as the greatest threat to their way of life, us. Does that mean we should ban photography of infrastructure? Insitute a national ID card? If we become that scared, then they have won. I’d rather live in a free country with an occasional terrorist attack, then live in lock down but feel safe.
nahhh
Terrorisim Is not intended to cause rapid political change. Don’t take the Train bombing in spain, and suddenly say what all acts of terrorism are intended for. Indeed there was a massive politacal change in Spain, i agree, that may have been the intention in Spain, But you would have to do a lot of work proving that the Attack on NYC was to invoke a massive politcal change., or any other acts of terrorisim.
1-6-0-0
Of course terrorism is intended to affect political change. It is a form of warfare ( a detestable one and cowardly one) but a form of warfare nonetheless, and warfare is an instrument of political will. By attacking soft civilian targets, the intent is to strike fear (the political gain) and to disrupt routine and force the victim to commit additional resorrces that could be used in other places (a basic military tactic). The goal is to force the victim to either change national policies (end presence in the Mid East, Ireland, etc ) or achieve a shorter term goal (prisoner release, etc). The WTC attack by Al Queda was most assuredly based on ideology with a political motive.
I agree with Mark, in that a railfan license is the wrong way to go, as it would be more of a concealed and carry permit, a get out of jail card, giving a rationale for being someplace and therefore open to abuse. Things ebb and flow and society goes through change and change again. I think this will eventually ease up …and if anything else…like I always say…vote your conscience.
I agree. I think Benjamin Franklin said it best: “Those who would trade freedom for security, will get, nor deserve neither.”
The weird part is, since 9/11 I haven 't been hassled once. I’ve talked with MOW employees, track gangs waiting out rainy days in their little “shanty towns” engineers waiting at crew chan ge points, and train crews waiting out signal changes, and all i’ve gotten were smiles from guys who were obviously a tad thrilled thaqt someone had taken an interest in their lives.
Trying to explain my success where others seem to have problems isn’t entirely easy, but “behavior” most likely is a part of it. When I know I’ve been seen, I don’t behave in ways that make folks have to won der what it is I might be up to. And when asked, I just say “Oh, getting in a little train watching” Then ask them about how their day is going.
People really enjoy talking about their favorite subject (themselves) and so things just go well, thats the best I can explain it, buy there are a few caveates:
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Never act like you know you shouldn’t be there, if you begin your “retreat” the second some guys lay their eyes on you, they’re gonna come find you and tell you that you know you don’t belong there
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stay away from the tracks as much as possible, and by this I mean don’t just walk down thecenter of the tracks, walk along side them
3 As a train approaches, never leave 1 iota of doubt in the en gineers mind that you know he’s there and a train is approaching. When a train is approaching from my rear, I’ll look back over my shoulder several times, not because I need to know there’s a train coming, but I want to make sure the engineer knows that I know he’s there. If you act in ways that give the engineer cause to worry for your safety, he’s gonna use that radio for yourr own good.
- “mix it up a little” Don’t go to the same spot day after day, but try to go to different lines, locales, etc your viewing will be more interesting, and you won’t set a pattern that can only work against you
5 Probably most importantly, when confronted (and
Fans photographing railroad facilities from public property who are challenged by railroad police might want to write a letter to the railroad in question and ask if the railroad policeman was following company policy.
Some years ago, the CTA had a shop complex on the north side. I am told CTA security people would confiscate railfans’ film, if they caught them photographing the shops from a public sidewalk. I related this account to a well-connected friend of mine, who told me those security men are lucky they never encountered a certain high-ranking CTA official, who also happened to be a railfan. My friend said the security men would have been fired on the spot for exceeding their mandate. (My friend said this would probably happen even if the railfan was on a CTA station platform.)
In another incident, some people claiming to be railroad police were confiscating railfans’ photographic equipment and telling the fans that they could pick up their equipment from their local police. This went on until one day, a railfan, who was himself supervisor of the railroad’s police, arrested these people, who were impersonating railroad police, and were stealing fans’ cameras.
So again, in those instances where a railroad policeman or other security person does something that seems overwrought, maybe documenting the incident, and reporting it to the railroad, with a polite inquiry if the person was following company policy might be a good idea.
OK-
NOW PROOVE that the Attack on the USA is going to cause a political change.
It didn’t / wasn’t going to.
If you recall correctly Post 9/11 beofre Iraq, support for Bush was it’s highest yet.
How does that go for Political change?
You wanted the same person
You are kidding right? The very basic tenet of terrorism is to affect political change by creating a sense of fear in the populace that they are not safe. The premise that it is not would be silly. Hijacking an airplane for money is a crimal act. Hijacking an airplane and seeking release of “political” prisoners or to try to get a government to change policy is terrorism. The difference is that terrorism is an act of war, which in and of itself is an instrument of political will. The terrorists that conducted the WTC and Pentagon attacks were acting as soldiers of Al Queda, a group which has goals of removing US presen
OH Yeah that happens to me alot!
It would seem that railroad managements and Homeland Security would find some value in having all those “foamer” eyes watching our vulnerable rail network. Might not railfans be excellent observers? With a keen interest in their hobby and a high level of knowledge many railfans might be able to recognize something suspicious and report it. When the national terror alert color code goes from orange to red, we general citizens are asked to “keep watch for anything suspicious.” So, such recognition by the government of the watchful eyes of the general public is a fact. But what about us railfans? Just as terrorists can hide within the ranks of the general public, so might they hide within the ranks of the railfans. The answer to all this is…
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark W. Hemphill
Three comments:
-
Almost ANY activity public or private is associated with terrorism. Using a cell phone, traveling on an airplane, moving your household goods, and using hand tools have all been definitively linked to a terrorist act in recent years (Madrid, 9/11, Timothy McVeigh, and the Unabomber).
-
Railroads are vulnerable to sabotage, but that’s not the same thing as terrorism. Sabotage is intended to cause economic or military disruption (which can often be the same thing). Terrorism is intended to cause rapid political change. Sabotage is an additive act; each event degrades an enemy and even small events are useful if there’s enough of them. Terrorism doesn’t work unless each outrage tops the last one: a public rapidly gets inured to little catastrophes. Any event of lesser caliber than 9/11 would probably be non-motivational to the U.S. public at this point–it would at most reinforce, not change, the course of national policy–and a train derailment or bombing is unlikely to be big enough to match 9/11. Terrorist actions against railroads in the U.S. would very quickly look like sabotage in that resources would be reallocated to prevent them, but they would not significantly change national policy. For that, a terrorist has to do another 9/11 or something even larger. The technology of railroading doesn’t lend itself to that very well.
-
A national ID card system for rail photography is more akin to a concealed weapons permit than a hunting license. A hunting license is a system of positive value that taxes hunters to pay for game-management programs: the hunter gets something of value. A concealed weapons permit is a system of negative value; it verifies the possessor is not a criminal and is allows him or her to engage in an activity that has great potential for harm. So first, a photography permit would weed out anyone with any errors in judgement in the past or any unfortu
Not real sure there is an single, definitive answer…
What I am sure of is every time we change how we live, what we do, how we act, and react to the people around us and the events happenng, we conceed to the terrorist’s wishes.
After all, what they wanted was world reconigition of their cause and desires, which they got in spades.
And sadly, my generation, for the most part, was raised completly un-aware of the cost of our freedom and our civil liberities, to most, we assume they are a given.
Yet we daily sit by, and watch as the very same freedoms and liberities are carefully and quitely being removed, our faces glued to the TV, watching the evening news, hoping the “goverment” can somehow keep the sky from falling, all in the name of homeland security.
Absurd, and terrifying too.
We seem to have forgotten a simple fact, who is going to police the world police?
And what will they do, after they have removed our power to curb their power and reach?
I jokingly referred to them as ***, but the fact is, the *** kept power precisely because the general populace was afraid to protest their actions and policies, until the ability to protest was gone completly.
Starting to sound familar?
The powers that be today would have you belive we are fighting a sophisticated and well run axis of evil, but the fact is they pulled off 9/11 with balls, guts and a lot of luck.
Box cutters and nailclippers, and the implied threat of a bomb is not the sophistication we are being sold, but thats what they used.
And they generated just enough fear in the general public to allow a few fascist radicals to gain a large part in controling our goverment, and curtailing our rights and liberities, all under the absurd concept of homeland security.
Homeland, Fatherland, dont sound too far apart, do they?
I, for one, dont like living in this culture of fear, or the implied sta
Ed is quite correct, as usual. Our own government has used 9/11 to attempt to gain all sorts of powers they normally couldn’t get. They have succeeded at some, failed on others. For example, right after 9/11 several members of congress said that the US needed tougher gun laws.??? When you stop to think that this is in response to an attack carried out with box cutters and nail clippers, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Fortunately, they didn’t get far with that one. However, others they have snuck in. The FBI now has a way to tap into your phone line remotely. It is also a whole lot easier for them to get authorization for phone taps. There are many other powers the government now has that probably have our Founding Fathers turning over in their graves. Those in congress who did stand up for the Constitution and spoke against some of these powers were quickly labeled as unamerican. Some were even called traitors.
I think we should give the terrorists what they want. If they want the US out of the Middle East, then fine. The US should find an alternate source of oil to replace oil from the Middle East, then pull out everything. No more oil money, no more foriegn aid money, no more anything from the US. Close all US military bases and pull out all US personnel stationed in the Middle East. Without the money from the US, their economy will collapse and the Middle East will go back to the Middle Ages. The US wouldn’t have to fire a single round or drop one bomb. The place would fall apart and self destruct.
Now if the terrorist still hate us and they continue to attack, then it time to go in and carpet bomb the place.
I’ve been in law enforcement for eight years now and can tell you from experience that sometimes it’s hard to tell who the bad guys are. Just because someone looks like an ordinary and innocent person doesn’t mean they are. To give an example, many years ago in a small town in Georgia, two officers were riding together on late night patrol
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard
Not real sure there is an single, definitive answer…
What I am sure of is every time we change how we live, what we do, how we act, and react to the people around us and the events happenng, we conceed to the terrorist’s wishes.
After all, what they wanted was world reconigition of their cause and desires, which they got in spades.
And sadly, my generation, for the most part, was raised completly un-aware of the cost of our freedom and our civil liberities, to most, we assume they are a given.
Yet we daily sit by, and watch as the very same freedoms and liberities are carefully and quitely being removed, our faces glued to the TV, watching the evening news, hoping the “goverment” can somehow keep the sky from falling, all in the name of homeland security.
Absurd, and terrifying too.
We seem to have forgotten a simple fact, who is going to police the world police?
And what will they do, after they have removed our power to curb their power and reach?
I jokingly referred to them as ***, but the fact is, the *** kept power precisely because the general populace was afraid to protest their actions and policies, until the ability to protest was gone completly.
Starting to sound familar?
The powers that be today would have you belive we are fighting a sophisticated and well run axis of evil, but the fact is they pulled off 9/11 with balls, guts and a lot of luck.
Box cutters and nailclippers, and the implied threat of a bomb is not the sophistication we are being sold, but thats what they used.
And they generated just enough fear in the general public to allow a few fascist radicals to gain a large part in controling our goverment, and curtailing our rights and liberities, all under the absurd concept of homeland security.
Homeland, Fatherland, dont sound too far apart, do they?
I, for o
YO! ED! all good points. and in that vein, it could well be the RR’s “exploiting” the fear of the moment.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but when I see some guy with a camera, photographing somee mundane every day thing, I think “lawyer” and “law suit”, that someone’s client no doubt came onto my property and tripped on a bump in the sidewalk, and now they are out collecting evidence…etc
Who’s interest does it serve to allow carte blanche photo opportunity? surely not the railroad’s
once in blue island at ihb yard getting photos, sec. guards of rr checked me out. i said whats the big deal. see that interlocking tower behind you? yes , well a guy was found there yesterday bound and gagged shot in head!!! once saw a ufo by tracks at nite. the next day 2 men in black escourted me off property.