I couldn’t be back into model railroading without online shopping. I live in a rural area and the nearest hobby shop that carries model railroad equipment is 65 miles away. I would love to be able to go into a shop and visit with other hobbyists and actually look at an item before I purchased it. But the demographics of this area just won’t support a business like that.
Jeff
Hey Phoebe…I was under the Impression that Charlotte lost it’s only MRR shop a few years back. I know the one went out of business back in 96 in 97, and the employees of that shop tried to make a go of a scale shop but that went under as well. I haven’t lived in Charlotte since 98, so I have been slightly out of touch, has a new shop opened in the area?
This subject comes up fairly regularly and frankly I am not worried about it at all. The Train Station in Columbus has been my LHS for about 30 years and is an outstanding store. I used to live a five minute drive from them but since I have moved about an hour away, I still do most of my business with them, making my stops there when I am in town on other business. I am not privy to their books but by all indications, they seem to be doing as well as ever. I hope they are around another 30 years. However times change and no one can be sure what the future will bring. If LHSes disappear, somebody is going to sell us what we want at a price we will be willing to pay. As long as there are buyers, there will be sellers. It may not be the hands on shopping experience many prefer, but the hobby is not in danger of dying because the LHS is disappearing.
I’m sitting in one of those houses that was built in 1920. It is the cheapest model Sears made but still going strong. Jerry
I have paid anywhere from $3 to $7 to just walk in and look at a train show. All of the dealers selling new in box items, while maybe discounting a little, are still higher than you could get an item for on the internet. So I’ve realized that the premium you have to pay to “see and feel” an item before you buy is just not at a LHS, but also at shows. I got to wondering, if I asked my LHS owner (who sells at full retail ) if I paid him $7 every time I walked in, would he match any price (plus shipping) on the internet? Would he do it? Would many other buyers agree to this? This is not a serious question I’m looking for a debate on, but just some food for thought, when deciding to pay a little more at LHS or buy online.
Jim
Hobbytown has two stores here, and there is a store in Gastonia that I have not been in.
The Trains only store in the Carolina Place Mall was not there for long, but malls are too expensive an environment.
Hobbytown is not trains only, but they have a good selection of trains on hand, are great to deal with, and can order anything that Walthers carries.
Hobbytown here in Omaha is worthless when it comes to MRR. They restock the rolling stock only during christmas and no DCC engines at all. I only buy the Athearn kits for cheap rolling stock. They are a real downer, they are only big into R/C stuff. Though that is just In Omaha.
While I look in on this forum only around once a week and have thus come in late on this thread, I must say that Howard seems to be one of the few folks here close enough to the real workings of the hobby to honestly have an appreciation of the consequences of what we see happening in the commercial end of model railroading today. I’m certainly glad to see him voice his concern, Howard being something of a recognized hobby authority (master model railroader, former brass dealer, major hobby promoter and author). It is sad that so few here seem to understand the magnitude of the repercussions it presents.
Brick and mortar hobby shops are disappearing because, through a dramatic decline in their customer base/profit margin, they are rapidly becoming no longer ecconomically viable as a business enterprise. Established shops that are put up for sale, or those that go on the market because their owners wish to retire, typically don’t sell and simply go out of business. When potential buyers (or their financial backers) look seriously into the way the wind is blowing for this type of business, they quickly decide to steer well clear of them.
It is fact that a strictly brick and mortar shop can not compete successfully for any length of time with solely on-line dealers/discounters, who have virtually no overhead, nor in-depth stock to maintain. Manufacturer’s pricing has reached the point that few hobbyists are willing to purchase expensive items other than on-line, cutting deeply into the viability of LH
There’s a paradox of model railroading: those who live in areas where the real estate for a large layout is more affordable tend to live further away from the urban centers that can actually support a decent hobby shop!
I spent the first half of my life as an avid hobbyist who lived hours away from a decent hobby shop.
I agree with CNJ for the most part with one exception:
The on-line dealers definitely have overhead. Having owned both an online business and an identical brick and mortar store,I can tell you the net profit margin for both the store and the Internet operation were exactly the same. The cost of the product is lower for the consumer, but the Internet retailer is looking for increased volume and automated systems to make up the difference. This, of course, excludes smaller eBayer, but the major Internet players are faced with the same competition for your on-line dollars that used to be the domain of the shops.
My LHS, Model Railway PO, as the name implies has always had a strong mailorder business. They also sell online, but do maintain a brick & mortar shop. They discount almost all products by about 20%, and match Walthers sale prices - without the shipping charges!! They have a large inventory, which is one of the things that many other LHS’s can’t afford. Many of the online-only shops have little or no inventory, you order from them & they order from Walthers, Horizon, etc., relieving them of inventory cost. Just think about that, almost all new releases are “limited run”, and there are more and more new releases than ever, and each one comes in multiple road names, or limited craftsman structure kits in the $100+ range. To inventory 1/10th of new releases would require an enormous inventory - and inventory costs big $$$. MRPO has an of-the-beaten location in an industrial park, so their rent is less than Main Street or the Mall, but still considerable compared to someone working out of their house with little or no inventory. I worked for a friend in a hobby shop for almost a year, and saw many customers come in to “see & touch” an item so they could order it on line!! We even had one jerk bring an on-line purchased loco in for us to fix FOR FREE BECAUSE WE CARRIED THAT LINE!!!
If you don’t patronize your LHS for more of your purchases, you may no longer have a LHS, or it may be a 2 hr drive away!!
Well, I don’t have any facts or really any informed opinions on the subject.
I support my LHS for most purchases. For small items he doesn’t carry, and for which shipping would make it not worth ordering online, I order through the LHS.
I do end up having to order online more than I’d like because I live in the South and I model the Northeast. My LHS carries gobs of Southern, SAL, ACL, CSX, NS, etc… but is real thin on PRR, Conrail, and Penn Central. I understand why he stocks what he stocks, and I don’t fault him for it.
Everywhere I’ve been stationed (except Korea), I’ve established a relationship with my LHS so they know me by name.
CNJ 831,
You seem to have a fine grasp on what is going on with hobby shops and the hobby in general. From your moniker…CNJ 831, I’d guess that you come from the area where many fine model railroad shops once flowered…New Jersey! (correct me if I’m wrong…Central New Jersey RR and 831 from the last class of Pacifics the CNJ ran).
Thanks for the good words, but I’m not a master model railroader…'just got a large set of electric trains and play with them often!
Had I been put on this planet to be a retailer and could choose any field to sell in. a hobby shop would be dead last with a huge gap between it and the second to last on the list. It takes dedication…decades back and today. Many folks get into buying a hobby shop because of the love of what they are selling, which far exceeds thier business sense and abilities. I had made the same choice in 1973 with my shop. Hell, I never even worked in a shop prior to my opening it. It was quite an experience and I had learned that I have much respect for today’s hobby retailers and how they are keeping this hobby alive for so many.
To run a successful shop today, one must be able to purchase the building or open in a run down area where rents are cheap. Location is quite important as at least 70% of your clientele shoud be “walk-in”. My whole opinion is based on how important venues like shops, shows, and clubs are for introducing this hobby to new folks.
HZ
HOWARD:
WE’re going through a phase. When State’s impose their (Av.10 %) sales taxes on ‘Mail Order’, and shipping expenses (already 10%) are imposed ,The Mail Order ‘Discount’ houses will disappear, and ‘Cash & Carry’ stores will hold sway.
Already: (Mail Order kings) SEARS and Mon’ty Wards has given sway to Wal Mart & Target.
As long as everybody wants to make a buck (including consumers). GREED is alive and well.
GILLBERT’S in GETTYSBERG, is indeed a woderful store. I discovered it when visiting the Battlefield. They carry things one cannot find at ‘$ell-whatever-is-moving’ Mail Order houses. I even bought Brass at Gilberts, when Tommy’s Uncle ran the store.
IT’S called “SELECTION”.
Here’s the issue i have with my “local” hobby shop: It’s 50 miles away! When I go there, it’s usually for one of those staples - flex track or a turnout. There’s a bin for code 70 flex track, but every time I go there to buy some, he always tells me he “just sold out.” Considering that it costs me $10 in gas to get there and $5 for each piece of track, I called up a mail order place and got what I needed - it arrived 3 days later. I’ll feel bad if he goes out of business, but I’ve been there at least once every couple of months for the past 5 years and every time I’ve left without something I really needed, and get it by mail order.
Every time I’ve gone in there looking to buy track I’ve left empty handed. It appears to be a well stocked HO exclusive model railroad hobby store - why are they always out of track!!???
My opinion is that hobby stores have to meet their customers half way: Stock the stuff we need and we’ll shop there.
There is a method of inventory control called APICS. It’s what the big box stores use to keep their stocks up. In this day and age, I’m amazed that any store is ever out of anything - the technology exists to make it so that over 99% of the time you have what your customers want to buy.
I’ve read this and other threads about hobby stores. What they have going for them is that they can immediately provide what their customers need. The mail order places will never be able to do this, so they should exploit that capability by having what their customers need in stock. APICS is not rocket science - anyone can learn it. This is how they can compete in the 21st century.
A couple of other ideas I’d offer them are to buy some brass locos on ebay, clean em up, add 10% and sell them in their stores. Ther
Reading this thread I am struck by how old fashion we as a group are. Joe’s on the right track. But not only will people learn about trains on the 'net, but about the hobby of model railroading as well. The LHS is no longer the gateway into the hobby. The young people of today grew up on the internet and that’s where they turn to for information. Sites like this one have have lots of information about the hobby - way more than your local hobby shop ever did. And there are lots of sites out there.
Retailing is changing. Walmart has changed everything and the small shops can’t compete. Niche markets are more 'net based. Discounting is a mixed bag for niche markets - some items are, others aren’t. In model railroading expect to see more online marketing and more train show dealers, fewer hobby shops.
The hobby is competition with all the other leisure time activities available, and there are a lot more than there were in the 50’s. So as a percentage of the population, the hobby declines; but in overall numbers it holds its own. Because it offers a unique experience it wll continue to do well.
Enjoy
Paul
Went to the Zane Show (as we call it) last weekend in Timonium, and the Mrs tagged along. It’s always a nice atmosphere at this event, well attended, and BTW Howard, the food vendor is fabulous [tup]. Perhaps it was the time of year, or the proximity to the YORK show, but I did notice a much smaller cadre of vendors this time (always good to see the Spicers). What we did notice was how well represented the regions modular/railroader clubs were. Fifey’s-wifey commented how the majority of faces seem to be 40-something-somethings like myself. That right there should speak volumes. Model railroading should be okie-doke for at least 2-3 more decades.
Now, as to the Local Hobby Shop scene. Friendly, courteous service, good product selection, and again, a nice atmosphere are important to me. The big-daddy in our region is Klein’s. Since their move from Gay St, their staff is noticeably more freindly and attentive to walk-in customers, leading to a nice “experience”. There’s a nice “barber-shop” feel to the train store in MtAiry. Very friendly service, and the kinda joint you’d want to hang out an hour or so a week. But for my train “fix”, I drive 70 minutes to Catoctin Hobbies, where the proprietors have “nailed” it, as far as LHS are concerned. These guys should give classes on how to handle customers. (Sorry boys, it’s mainly 3-rail…[:D])
Paul, what evidence can you point to that supports your views? Exactly why would anyone without any previously existing interest in model railroading come to this, or any similar site, in the first place? What would be the stimulus to do so and from what would such an interest in model trains arise? You are assuming prior interest/exposure to the hobby by the individual, yet in modern-day America virtually the last existing example of such exposure have been the hobbyshops and they are vanishing. When broad public interest in model trains was indeed abroad in the land, between WWII and the 60’s, real trains were a basic part of everyday life, hobbyshops abounded, hardware and department stores sold Lionel and sometimes Flyer year-round and at Christmastime had crowd-drawing window displays of same. Concurrently, both Lionel and Flyer also sponsored weekly TV train shows aimed at pre-teens and their dads (not pre-K kids). Nearly anywhere one turned, they saw evidence of the hobby.
Fast forward to today and where is the quivalent exposure coming from that introduces the general public to model railroading? In Thomas? Please! Today our hobby has virtually no real public exposure, with even the train shows largely based on preaching to the chior. Now we are loosing the hobbyshops which served as the main outlet for our hobby’s magazines and this drops
I think people are expecting too much from their LHS. As much as I would like to see a huge store with everything thats available in front of me its just not realistic. I can’t believe people actually expect them to carry everything that “they” need. Whats wrong with ordering stuff from your LHS? I do it all the time. I can’t expect my LHS to cater just to me can I? We all have very different tastes and for a LHS to stock everything that we all would be interested in just can’t be done. I guess I’m lucky, my LHS is moving to a bigger store the end of April and its because they have a great customer base that is willing to wait an extra week or so for something that they ordered.
There is certainly some truth to what CNJ, Howard, et al. are saying. Howard, of course, is uniquely qualified to speak on the overall health of the hobby, being a train show promoter.
I would probably be really worried about the hobby were it not for two things:
I’ll keep at this hobby no matter what anyone else does.
At least for the time being, hobby manufacturers are still coming out with new releases, and so must believe that money can still be made in model railroading.
Witness Atlas. This past decade has seen an explosion of new items from Atlas in 3 scales; most of which is very close to prototype. Atlas has eclipsed MicroTrains as the flagship for N scale. Its newer cars are well engineered, ride lower (in N scale, ride height is a big issue), and are more affordable. Atlas pushed code 55 track in N and is now competing with Kato’s Unitrack with its new American-style TrueTrack in N. And Atlas is releasing new N scale locomotives every few months.
I relate this story because it tells me that at least some companies in the hobby are growing because they feel the market can support that growth. Athearn and Walthers have also been coming out with many new products each year.
That tells me, an admitted layman, that the hobby itself isn’t going away immediately.
Where I really agree with CNJ, Howard, etc. is that the “face” of model railroading is changing dramatically, and I would not be surprised if 20 years down the road you won’t find an LHS in your town (or the next). All distribution will have ended up online (or whatever new technology supplants the Internet).
The nature of the hobby itself, i.e., what we define as model railroad craftsmanship, will also change. RTR is not a fad; it’s here to stay. There will always be those of us who, out of need or desire, will occasionally roll our own, but the days of the LHS well-stocked with strip and bass