I want to build a 10’x13’ ‘U’- shaped HO layout in my garage. I will be using an open grid with 1x4 L girders. I need to be able to hoist the layout up and out of the way when not in use. I’m afraid of attaching cable attach points to the 1x4 girders for fear of flexing the layout. Any ideas how to hoist the layout? Possibly making a crib under the girders?
Thanks
Dad built for us an 8x8’ table that could be lifted to the ceiling in the garage. But that was a square table, and only needed four ropes and used a single winch.
A “U” shaped layout is going to be much more complicated to lift up and down. Can it be done? LION does not know, but I suppose that it can be done.
LION would not bother. Him would build the U shape layout about 6’ high, fixed to the walls, and let the car park under it. Him would then just fold down a walkway to access the layout. But what can I say, LIONS are different.
ROAR
Lion, thanks for thinking out of the box. Unfortunately I am dealing with a 9’ finished garage ceiling.
Here are some items I recall from the pages of MR:
Cables clip to the outer corners of the layout and go straight up to ceiling pulleys, all connect,to a single counter weight along (or inside) one wall.
The counter weight must be designed so the weight can be adjusted, and have a strong “shelf” that can be inserted to support it in its elevated position when the layout is lowered.
Pulleys need to be fairly large in diameter (6" or more) to avoid pinching the cables. I believe there is a formula that recommends pulley size based on cable thickness.
The layout is secured in the storage position by short ceiling cables and clips to prevent accidential lowering.
Specific to your layout:
I’d build the perimeter benchwork from 1x4’s ripped from 8 ply 3/4" plywood and formed into either I beams, box beam, or skirt the outer sides with trusses.
I’d recommend having removable frame members to bridge the opening in the U.
One good point - it should be easy to wire from beneath!
Jim
On the open end have another 1x4 that fits and get a set of hinges and attach them when you want to winch it up just put the 1x4 back and insert the hinge pins. Problem solved, Jim.
Jim, great idea - thanks!
There’s no other options? Garages are certainly fine, but aren’t always the best option. Weather (humidity/heat/cold) don’t always play nice with layouts or electronics, for starters. Dust & track cleaning will probably be more in a garage. You should probably give the ceiling joists a good once over to be sure they’re going to like supporting that weight. And hoisting up a layout, though certainly do-able, just seems like more work. For example, not only are you lifting and securing the layout - you have to remove the rolling stock after each use, which for me would be a pain. It seems inconsequential, but I like going to the layout & hitting the power switch and pick up right where I left off. shrug Everything has to be secured down, engineering a safe lifting system, etc. I like the LION’s idea if you need a dual purpose garage. You might want to consider that permanent shelf layout combined with one or two modular sections (you can store far easier) that can be popped into place and away you go?
-Ed
Ed, regarding garage conditions, methinks thou protest too much.
My double garage filler has been under slow construction and just about continuous operation since 2004, and I haven’t found the layout any worse off than if I had built it in a spare bedroom - except that the bedroom would only be about 1/3 the size and have windows and a closet in problematic locations.
As far as lifting a layout, if it’s L girder construction attach the lift cables where the legs would normally be and make sure the lift is true vertical. That won’t cause any more stress than would result from having it stand on the floor. With a low-speed power winch, there shouldn’t be any seismic effects. Lower the table onto fold-down legs (or sawhorses, or something equivalent) and make sure the cables aren’t under tension. If you leave the layout suspended when you’re operating it, even a hip nudge will be about seven on the (model) Richter scale.
To assure a safe lift, you should go above the ceiling and install hard points for the fixed sheaves. I wouldn’t trust the ceiling rafters to support anything but themselves, drywall and a few light fixtures.
The key to a safe lift is to pull every cable the exact same distance at the exact same speed. You might have to tinker with cable routing, and may end up with a cat’s cradle of cable between the layout and the ceiling when the layout is in the fully raised position. Some form of positive lock would be a good investment.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Ed, there’s no room in the house available to me so the garage is the only option. I plan on installing an electric winch rather than hand cranking the layout. I’ll build some fold-down legs to use when operating; I don’t need any seismic tremors. Safety cables will hold the layout when it is raised.
Sounds a bit complex but quite doable.
Obviously you will test the lifting mechanism several times before beginning to install anything like track etc. I have a theoretical test method if you want to see how much the table distorts when it is raised and lowered. Tape a layer of craft paper over the entire table when it is lowered and supported. Attach the paper to the outside edges only and make sure it is smooth and taut. If there is any twisting when the table is lifted that should show up in the craft paper. It should wrinkle and/or lift where the table goes out of flat.
This is what I mean by craft paper:
http://www.uline.com/BL_1951/Kraft-Paper-Rolls
Just a suggestion. I may be out to lunch! (At least I’m always interested in what’s on the menu!)
Dave
Your idea of “cribbing” the “L” girder, may actually work far better than constructing the Girder/ beam strong enough to withstand any lifting deflection. Since the layout is a “U”, 2 of the lifting members will need to span the walkin opening. The lifting beam members could be attached at a modified leg brackets/ bracing spots at 6 points @ the “L” girder whereas this would be the best lifting points. The only issue is to “brainstorm” some quick attachment of at least the 2 beams running across the open area (mounting slots, brackets, threaded pins and large wing nuts etc) the 3rd beam doesn’t nec need to be removed, it could be fixed w/ the eyebolts protruding.
I would try to keep it as light as possible and even consider foam over just enough ply thickness for stability of the deck 1/4 or 3/8 w the extruded foam well bonded. May even be able to go to 24" center for the joists.
Use of a wider (facia/ perimeter skirt) can help stabilize the 3 sides of the “Box” and if calculated to the proper height, can also act as side supports for the lifting members (allow to be @ same level as the bottom of the “L” girder. The fixed 3rd member can be permanently attached to the end of the long “L” girders at the solid end of the “Box/ U”
I built a 6’ by 6’ suspended layout in my son’s bedroom several years ago. Although I managed to get the layout hoist system working flawlessly without having to remove anything prior to raising or lowering the layout, I eventually abandoned this idea as layout access was insufficient. You would think that a 6" by 6" layout in a 10’ by 11’ bedroom would be an easy fit but you could not move around the perimeter of the layout without having to climb over normal bedroom furniture. Keep adequate perimeter access in mind when designing your layout. You will need to access the entire layout perimeter in order to work on track laying and scenery.
Keep the layout as lightweight as possible. I constructed my open grid benchwork using 1/2" cabinet grade plywood (7 plys with no voids) for all framing members. I simply ripped the sheet of 1/2" plywood into 3 inch wide strips, then cut the strips to length to form the various framing members. Rip a kiln dried 2" by 4" into a couple of 2" by 2"s. Cut these into 3" lengths and use as gluing blocks to reinforce the 90 degree joints where the plywood framing members meet. Glue all joints as this is the only way you will achieve the framing rigidity you need to hoist the layout without flexing! I used 1/4" plywood to create the cookie cutter style layout deck (glue it to the framing wherever possible for shear strength). Don’t overbuild the layout! You just need torsional rigidity. It does not have to support a Sherman tank.
My suspension system was fairly simple and should work for you too. I started with a 120v winch from Harbor Freight Tools (I don’t remember the rating but it was the smallest unit they offered) mounted near the floor on one wall and centered in relation to the layout. I attached the winch cable to the center of a 3’ long load spreader made from a piece of 1/4" by