In Germany a private company handles the sleeper cars and diners. Lets just go with the Builder, and it has what 5 sets? So about 15 sleepers and 5 diners? Really not a lot of cars…
Now not that one person could do it on there own, but maybe 3 or 4 people could each get one diner, not like it be hard to make them nicer and have better food.
Sleepers would be a bit harder to do just because of how many there are, but making them nicer is easy. I was told that the the Builder could use at least 2 more sleepers per set. He said that 99% of the time if they had the extra cars they would be be sold out too, but Amtrak don’t have the cars to do it.
Like a modern version of what Pullman did – privately-owned sleepers & diners attached to the passenger trains of the operating railroad (in this case, Amtrak)?
Have you looked at the economics? Operating costs (staff + “rent” to Amtrak), plus amortization of equipment acquisition costs, vs. fares that could be charged? I think that is where the answer is to be found.
By the way, who out there knows what Amtrak charges to haul a private car? That might be a good starting place to consider.
Definitely and interesting concept. And yes, reflective of the Pullman Company’s sleeping and parlor car services. But before we start piecemealing Amtrak apart, let’s get a clearly defined and working model for Amtrak instead of the Congressionsal Lionel play set they think it is.
Your comment on Germany is not true. In Germany (and extending into other countries as well) City Night Line owns and operate the sleeping cars ans auto trains. It is a wholly-owned subsidiary of DBAG (Deutsche Bahn) and has been integrated into DBAG since 2010. The food service cars (BordBistro and BordRestaurant) I believe are also part of DBAG, although I am not certain.
Is Wagon Lits still operating sleepers and diners in Europe? If they are still in business after all these years, they must have figured out a way to succeed.
Dragoman: It was a fast random idea I had before work, so no I have not really crunched any numbers. But for an idea here are the 2007 private car rates.
**"**Train Mileage Fees
$2.10 per car mile.
$1.60 per car mile for additional cars moving under the same movement request or reservation. Private cars that are on the same train that have not requested to move together on a movement request will be charged the full rate of $2.10 per mile. Train Mileage Frequent Traveler Option $1.90 per mile for a single car only, which operates between the same city pair (round trip) for five trips in a calendar year. Payable up front and there will be no refund if the car does not make these trips in the same calendar year.
Overnight Parking
$100 per car, per day. This applies when a private car is at a location/facility at 12:01 am. A grace period of up to 48 hours is granted when a private car is being delivered from a foreign railroad and an exact delivery date cannot be determined. Additionally, no charge will be made at transfer points or terminals when cars are being held for the earliest connecting train or when a car remains with the consist at a turn around location.
At certain locations, such as: Denver, Kansas City and Saratoga, Amtrak does not own the parking rights at those facilities. Therefore, the car Owner/Operator must contract with the owners of those facilities directly. The following exceptions also apply to parking at several Amtrak locations:
New Orleans 20% surcharge (City of New Orleans) on the total cost of parking while in NOUPT.
Boston - $300 fee (MBTA charges) per night.
Portland - $225 fee (City of Portland charges) per night.
While this is how Amtrak handles their private cars, I don’t think that this is how a pullman style service would work. Obviously, for private sleeper and diner service, there would be some sort of economies of scale aspect. There would be more than one private car being operated at a time, requiring larger facilities. A formal agreement would have to be made with Amtrak in order for them to contract out their sleeper and diner service.
That said, a private company that operates sleeper and/or service for Amtrak would be a major step in reducing Amtrak’s cost on long distance trains, as well as increasing the quality of service. There would be no more arguments from the pork-exposing politicians that the taxpayer subsidizes such service for “the only people who ride it”, i.e. wealthy retirees and leisure travelers.
A few other questions need to be answered:
How would the loss of revenue from sleeper and diner services affect a long distance train’s bottom line?
How would private service affect sleeper fares and dining car prices?
To extrapolate: Could contracting out diner service work on shorter distance routes of 500 miles or less?
I wouldn’t get too enthused right away that a private opreator of sleeping cars and diners would be a panacea for whatever ails Amtrak, Congress or not. Private investors could operate on the cheap with low wage labor, poor quality or amounts of food, and no amenities which, while keeping the price down would not be attractive enough to woo sleepers or diners. All that glitters is not gold…
Idea would just increase costs without bringing in more revenue . Today a car attendent can work either in coaches or in sleepers or in both. This is flexibility in work assignments. Then there is cleaning, maintenance, repair, etc.
Wouldn’t do it that way. I’d bid it out. Set service levels and then let the winner set fares and keep revenue. It would give the contractor the incentive to provide good service since they’d reap the reward.
Might still be a money loser, i.e. the bid winner actually gets paid instead of having to pay. But, it should lose less than the current set-up.
Good idea!! Why not take that to the logical conclusion: just contract out the various routes of the entire long distance service: sleepers, diner and coaches? If no takers, let that route go under.
Even if Amtrak were authorized to privatize some or all of its long distance train services, e.g. sleepers, on-board food service, etc., there are likely to be few takers. The probability of earning a decent return on the investment is very low.
As I remember it Pullman bailed out of the sleeping car business because it was losing its shirt. And the railroads got out of the passenger business because it was killing them financially. So why should we believe that the economics of long distance trains or any segment of them has changed since the inception of Amtrak, which was a political response to a failed business model?
The Great Southern Railway, which is a private consortium, operates three of Australia’s long distance trains, i.e. The Indian Pacific, The Gahn, and The Overland. I have ridden all three of them. They are first class. GSR gets a substantial subsidy from the Australian government to help cover the costs of the services and provide a reasonable return for the operators. They may also own the equipment; I am not sure.
The last time that I checked the Indian Pacific runs two days a week between Sydney and Perth during the high season and only one day a week during the off season. The same is true for The Gahn, which runs from Adelaide to Darwin. The Overland runs three days a week between Adelaide and Melbourne. The Overland is a coach only train featuring business class and coach class. When I rode the train two years ago it had a dinning car.
The Inspector General’s 2005 Analysis of Long Distance Services showed that sleeping car passengers required a substantially higher subsidy than that required for coach passengers. Whether this is still the case is unknown. Amtrak appears to have increased the sleeping car accommodations charges substantially, but its costs undoubtedly have increased as well. I suspect that the subsidy required to transport a sleeping car passenger i
Even if Amtrak were authorized to privatize some or all of its long distance train services, e.g. sleepers, on-board food service, etc., there are likely to be few takers. The probability of earning a decent return on the investment is very low.
As I remember it Pullman bailed out of the sleeping car business because it was losing its shirt. And the railroads got out of the passenger business because it was killing them financially. So why should we believe that the economics of long distance trains or any segment of them has changed since the inception of Amtrak, which was a political response to a failed business model?
The Great Southern Railway, which is a private consortium, operates three of Australia’s long distance trains, i.e. The Indian Pacific, The Gahn, and The Overland. I have ridden all three of them. They are first class. GSR gets a substantial subsidy from the Australian government to help cover the costs of the services and provide a reasonable return for the operators. They may also own the equipment; I am not sure.
The last time that I checked the Indian Pacific runs two days a week between Sydney and Perth during the high season and only one day a week during the off season. The same is true for The Gahn, which runs from Adelaide to Darwin. The Overland runs three days a week between Adelaide and Melbourne. The Overland is a coach only train featuring business class and coach class. When I rode the train two years ago it had a dinning car.
The Inspector General’s 2005 Analysis of Long Distance Services showed that sleeping car passengers required a substantially higher subsidy than that required for coach passengers. Whether this is still the case is unknown. Amtrak appears to have increased the sleeping car accommodations charges substantially, but its costs undoubtedly have increased as well. I suspect that the subsidy required to transpor
That is not quite how it happened. In 1940 the Feds brought an antitrust suit against Pullman in federal court in Philadephia. As a result of that action, the court ordered Pullman to get out of either the car construction business or the car ownership and operation business. The upshot was that ownership and operation was sold to a new company jointly owned by 40-odd railroads.
Thanks for the insight. Nevertheless, if I remember correctly, the company that was jointly owned by the 40 odd railroads folded in the early to mid 60s and those railroads that still hoisted sleeping cars took over their operation. Is this not correct? Also, what was the name of the company that was owned by the railroads and operating the sleeping cars post 1940?
By the mid 60s the 40 or so railroads were trying to get out of the passenger business or were being forced out by loss of mail contracts, the Eisenhower Highway System, and municipal owned airports. IT was a loss of business more than a lack of service. There was no name to the company but a mutual consortium operation with the cars owned by the individual railroads and assigned to routes by them rather than by Pullman. Pre 1960 was a different world than we know today and few understand it all. Even us old farts who lived it.
Quoting Sam1: “Thanks for the insight. Nevertheless, if I remember correctly, the company that was jointly owned by the 40 odd railroads folded in the early to mid 60s and those railroads that still hoisted sleeping cars took over their operation. Is this not correct? Also, what was the name of the company that was owned by the railroads and operating the sleeping cars post 1940?”
In 1947, the Pullman Company, which was the division of Pullman that operated first class service was separated from the parent company, and was sold to a consortium of fifty-seven railroads. It continued to operate under the name “the Pullman Company,” with headquarters at 165 North Canal Street in Chicago.
From time to time, one railroad or another began operating the sleeping car service on its own lines, and on 1 January 1969 all roads which still had first class service began to operate the cars themselves. I have stubs of Pullman tickets dating into November of 1968, and stubs of railroad first class accomodations dating from April of 1969 (no first class travel for me in between). For a short time, Pullman continued to provide supplies to the railroads; I do not remember just how long this practice lasted.
The pictures I have seen post WW-2 show cars labeled Pullman with only a car name; As one RR ( SOU ) took over it painted over the Pullman and added a car number on the right ends of the car looking at the car. Sometimes if Pullman not painted over the ends would have SOU and a car number under SOU. Still kept the car name pullman had assigned.
SOU #s 2000 - 2020 10 rmts-6 bedrooms pullman standard light weights.
2100 & 2200 series unknown.
2400 series – Heavyweight section sleepers
Some RRs just painted over Pullman with Norfolk and Western and did not have a car number just the car name.
Without looking at a Passenger Car Register, I would say that the 2100 and 2200 series cars were 14 roomettes & 4 double bedrooms, and 11 double bedrooms. The Crescent sleeper-lounges and the observation cars may also have been in one series or the other.
I recall seeing the Southern sleepers with “Southern” on the letterboard, and “Pullman” over the doors.