How best to go about 'bashing a steam engine?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

It’s starting to be a theme around here with people wanting to modify and kitbash steam engine prototypes. I would like to try my first attempt at modifying an engine to more closely resemble the correct locomotive myself. I am a NYC modeler, and with Hudsons, Niagaras, etc. there are a lot of prototype specific engines I can have or will have in the future. But, I picked up a Nickel Plate Mikado a couple of days ago, and the NKP is going to be my 2nd “visiting” road from now on. Later when I have a larger layout I’ll have a few NKP engines sharing the right of way with my NYC power. The NKP is conveniently historically connected to and traveled in the same vicinity as the NYC did.

My engine is NKP Mike #588. The BLI model seems to be close, but in the end just a generic USRA mike. I did some research, and #588 is an ex-Lake Erie and Western (NYC subsidy) engine that was transferred to the NKP when they bought Lake Erie and Western. Of course, I have found no pictures of #588 itself, but it is an H-6o engine like the surviving #587. Should I assume that they would be fairly identical?

The main differences I notice is that the prototype engine has “flying” numberboards, different headlight, a different pilot, plus a few other small details:

Would the Cal-Scale numberboards/headlight assemblies be a good fit for these? I don’t think this should be too hard of a first project,

2

It looks like an easy re detail. Research and more photos are a requirement for detailing any steamer. Through the years railroads would update and change the appearance of locomotives. Detailing a loco one way may be good for only a short period of time. Photos of both sides and taken during the same time is a plus.

Calscale, Shelly, Details west and others have detail parts. Scratch building parts like foot boards and running boards can be a little more difficult. There is a manufacture that make rivet decals now so it makes things a lot easier for super detailing now.

Pete

3

Get a PSC steam locomotive paper catalog They have loads of stuff. Check Walther’s, Bowser.

http://www.precisionscaleco.com/

Rich

4

You may want to find the following issues of Mainline Modeler magazine:

Modifying Athearn’s USRA 2-8-2, Part One
Mainline Modeler, February 2000 page 67
The Tender Prototype and Plans
( 2-8-2, ATHEARN, DRAWING, “HUNDMAN, ROBERT L.”, NKP, STEAM, SUPERDETAIL, TENDER,
USRA, ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE, MM )

Modifying Athearn’s USRA 2-8-2, Part Two
Mainline Modeler, March 2000 page 53
The tender shell
( 2-8-2, ATHEARN, “HUNDMAN, ROBERT L.”, NKP, SCRATCHBUILD, STEAM, SUPERDETAIL, TENDER,
USRA, CONSTRUCTION, ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE, MM )

Modifying Athearn’s USRA 2-8-2, Part Four
Mainline Modeler, May 2000 page 52
The Tender
( 2-8-2, ATHEARN, DRAWING, “HUNDMAN, ROBERT L.”, NKP, STEAM, SUPERDETAIL, TENDER,
USRA, ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE, MM )

NKP USRA 2-8-2 - The Tender - Coal Space and Coal Gate
Mainline Modeler, June 2000 page 45
( 2-8-2, DRAWING, “HUNDMAN, ROBERT L.”, NKP, STEAM, TENDER, USRA, ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE,
PROTOTYPE, MM )

NKP 2-8-2 Class H6e
Mainline Modeler, September 2000 page 61
Special attention to Number 636
( 2-8-2, DRAWING, “HUNDMAN, ROBERT L.”, NKP, STEAM, ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE, PROTOTYPE, MM )

Modifying Athearn’s USRA 2-8-2 the tender
Mainline Modeler, March 2001 page 70
making the riveted wrapper and detailing the tender
( 2-8-2, “HUNDMAN, ROBERT L.”, NKP, SCRATCHBUILD, STEAM, TENDER, CONSTRUCTION, ENGINE,
LOCOMOTIVE, HO, MM )

5

The two pictures do like really close–definitely doable.

One thing: locos change over time. I would expect the numberboards were added in “later” years. For example, on the SP&S they were added to steam about June of 1949. The headlight might also have been changed–it looks kinda “modern”. There also appears to be a blow down muffler on 587. Sometimes those were added later.

I also see smoke box hinges on 587, an exhaust into the smokebox for the air compressor, a generator turned sideways and perhaps a different model, a smoke deflector at the back of the cab roof, and a curve on the top of the tender at the coal bunker (maybe it’s not the original tender–see many GN locos, for example).

As for the numberboards, I’m having trouble seeing them in the picture. They look to be made out of big pieces of sheet metal–the supports, that is. You might be happiest scratching the brackets themselves.

Yes, very very doable, Ed

PS: I wish it were this easy to convert a UP Challenger to an SP&S Z6. Oh BLI, would you mind…

6

There’s an old saying about never assuming…

The NKP sold 588 to the NdeM in 1946. The NKP started applying flying numberboards to theis H-6 Mikes in 1947 and stopped applying them in 1950 (some H-6’s never got them). Worse yet, NKP 587 today does NOT look the same as when she was in service. Finally, and most confusing, the NKP loved to “fiddle with” their Mikes, especially when it came to tenders. 587 is a great example: the NKP got her in 1922 and put her in a park in 1955. Over the course of those 33 years she ran with at least eight different tenders.

So…you’ve got two basic choices: pick a year you want to model 588 accurately, or renumber the model. Well, three choices: ignore reality completely and do whatever you want! It’s generally simpler to renumber (Champ makes an acce

7

I’m a bit confused about all your information, but I appreciate it. I hadn’t seen anything anywhere that #588 was sold off so early. Great[sigh]. As far as I can tell, #588 and the rest in the class were actually NYC H-6s, and then got transferred to NKP in the purchase. I really don’t want to just make something up, but at the same time I don’t want my first attempt at this type of project to be extremely difficult. I don’t have near the skill you, and say Doctor Wayne have. If #588 was gone by '46, then I guess I need to renumber this one. As far as that goes, I could tell that the lettering looked a little off size-wise so that could be done at the same time.

I knew 587 had a different tender, and had been reworked since being in service. I hoped it would be a little closer to reality for this project though. I really need to find some better pictures of NKP Mikes, because about all I can find are newer pictures of 587 and some H-5’s from the 40’s. I already feel a bit over my head on this…

8

I’m in the middle of that SAME redo for 587. Having seen her in person, the biggest change is you need a Berkshire Tender. I found a pair of brass numberboards, and glued them in such a way that the edge is attahced to the side of the bell frame, and the other end is glued to the top of the boiler. It’s not correct, but it’s more stable than the flying style. I had already cut the stems off the number boards ( so that they can be placed into a hole) before I had remembered the fertical shelf mount. If you do the mount, still glue the way I did for stability. One superglue joint is not enough for those little numberboards. 3 will be adequate.

There’s an air compressor thingy (afore-mentioned generator?) under the smokebox on the pilot as well. Barely visible. but there.

EDIT: The above guy just trumped the purpose of this post, since 588 didn’t make it this far. Ah well.

Also, at least 8 tenders is an exageration. 587 had the original USRA tender, NKP swapped her a larger tender resembling the Berkshire Tender but scaled down slightly specifically for the Mikes, and then she got a Berkshire Tender from a wrecked Berk. (Number?) She did flatland work and swapped trains with the berks like 765 at the edges of the mountains. NKP gave her the dwarfingly large tender so she could run great distances withut having to stop. Faster timetables. I’ve been told that the Indiana Transportation Museum has all three of 587’s tenders, or identical ones like them, floating around the line. I volunteer there, but I’m not in the shops to confirm that.

On the lettering, BLI is also too dark. Micorscale also sells a set of NKP decals, but there’s bunch of them. I used it to redo the Berk tender, business car NKP 1, and can still do NKP 426 (GP7) and at least one more.

9

Hi again “NYCentral1”;

Well, yes and no. The NYC was assigned over 150 USRA light Mikes. Since the NYC corporate structuring was strange (to say the least) they were never legally the property of the NYC, but went directly to the LE&W. Those 15 engines went tot he NKP when they absorbed the LE&W in 1922 (they had been a majority owner of the LE&W since the teens). The NKP, NYC and LE&W all called the USRA lights the H-6 class, since at one time they were all part of the same railroad system.

You really need to join the NKPHTS. They have hundreds of NKP Mike photos up in the member’s section of the website, and have Howard Ameling’s photo collection for sale on CD. Fallen Flags has SOME NKP Mike photos up, but since the engines all went through major changes every ten years, you’ll need to realy know what you want to model and when. And finally, you REALLY need to email me offlist!

10

Um…wow…NO.

Please erase EVERYTHING in your mind that you think you know about NKP Mikados. PLEASE. Let me explain:

Sort of. Actually, it’s NOT a Berkshire tender, but a slightly smaller one that LOOKS like a Berk tender. It’s a standard AMC design used by the NKP, Erie, C&O and Pere Marquette.

I can’t even visualize this, unless you’re talking about a type of numberboard that’s similar to what the UP, ATSF, and SP used. The AMC used this style of numberboard on SOME engines, mostly on older C&O passenger power. They made it onto the NKP’s Pacifics, and they look horrible.

The FNB’s are plenty strong, if you use the Cary part and keep the “crescent moon” attachment in place (sand off the rivets on the front of the engine; the bell bracket will hide the lack of rivet detail), ACC will work just fine (AC, superglue, whatever). I’ve built five NKP Mikes for myself so far and three for others (and have another four on the bench) and so far none have broken off.

That’s an auxiliary air reservoir, available from Bowser through several of their part

11

Interesting project.

http://www.itm.org/equipment/nkp_587.htm

In 1924 Lake Erie & Western engines 5540-5554 became Nickel Plate Nos. 586-600. The second engine of this group, LE&W No. 5541, thus became Nickel Plate No. 587. All engines in this group were classified Nickel Plate Class H-6o and subsequently repainted and relettered.

Found this pic that may be of help.

12

Now… Let’s REALLY add to the confusion, start arguments and all that…;. Felt a bit of intrigue as to the 588, and did a little further looking around.

http://nickelwiki.pbworks.com/NKP+Mikados+-+a+modeler's+guide

Quite a bit of information. I think you may need to sign up to see the pics, but:

“Along with the H-6a class, the H-6o is the easiest to model. Easier, in fact, since most engines never received such appliances as the flying numberboards, multi-bearing crossheads, or Mar’s light. But if you’re modeling post-1945, the only truly easy engine of this class to model is 587. But remember: don’t just rush off, photograph her as she looks now, and crank out a model to run. It’ll ONLY be correct for a post-1984, post-steam, and indeed post-NKP layout!”

An excellent pic of flying mumberboards is here:

http://www.freewebs.com/steamfans/PM%201223%20Copyright.jpg

I would think posting the link is OK.

13

If you would like to build a model of the tender from a kit like the one that the 587 has, there is a possibility. About 15 or 20 years ago someone offered a kit in HO. It had a photo etched brass wrapper and perhaps included the trucks. It was listed in the Walthers catalog. They also made brass wrappers for distintive cabooses including NKP ones. Sorry, I can’t recall the name of the manufacturer but if you find out, perhaps something like that will turn up on ebay? Maybe some enterprising indivdual could track down the die work and etching drawings and re-offer it or pehaps offer the tender in resin?

You are correct about some locations where the NKP and NYC shared trackage. This was probably due to the LE&W at one time being part of the NYC Lines before it was spun off to the NKP. A few locations that come to mind are Sandusky, Ohio (shared the yards I believe), trackage rights west of Lafayette, Indiana, interchange at Fort Wayne, Indiana and a section of joint track in Pennsylvania. The LE&W stopped using the NYC 4th Sreet Yards at Fort Wayne around WWI but the NKP did reportedly occasionaly run a transfer trains into the 4th Street yards at least into the transition era. And one story has it that when the coal dock at the NKP West Wayne Yards burned or fell in, NKP Berks, often in pairs, for a while would venture up to the the NYC 4th Street Yard to take on coal. I’m sure there are other examples of the NKP and NYC mixing it up though they were competitors in the later era.

You really are in luck as far as the USRA Mike is concerned. That will be a relatively easy kitbash though the steam and sand domes may differ. I have a Wabash K-1 Mike on my list which will requite the boiler and cab off a brass J-1 4-6-2 plus probably a new tender. The trick is fing a suitable 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 with a resonably close wheelbase and cylinder saddle arrangement that can be modifi

14

Hi Bill,

No confusion here: what I wrote four years ago still holds true today (although I do have to clean up a few small details!).

And thanks for the compliment! That series will eventually get published by the NKPHTS, as soon as I’m done tracking down publication permission for all of the photos (which is why they’re not on that Wiki!).

15

Hi “wabash2800”,

You’re thinking of “The Car Shops”. It was run by a NKP fan and modeler in the 1970s and early 1980s, and offered several wrapper kits among other things. They’re LONG gone. An O scale cottage manufacturer has the original artwork and has released SOME of the line in O. Unfortunately, the company never offered the 22-RA tender that’s behind 587 today.

Bah; don’t waste the J1 (remember: no dashes in Wabash class numbers!). Keep it as-is, and fabricate the K1 by using the Bowser “USRA” 2-8-2 frame & wheels, mated to a scratchbuilt boiler (using the Cary USRA boiler firebox that the kit comes with as weight?). Make a clay mold of the domes and cast them in Alumilite. I’ve got a friend who’s working on a huge Wabash layout now, and he’s working on a similar conversion (he needs LOTS of Wabash engines, and is just using the BLI and Mantua drives to standardize with).

16

Hi Ray:

Nice to hear from you. I have about three of the J-1’s and I’m willing to sacrifice the one with the poor solder joints on the tender among other problems. Anyway, the K-1 was a bit smaller than the USRA mikes. (I have a 2-8-0 mechanism in mind.) I’m finishing up a kitbash Wabash combine as we speak and I’m realizing that some kitbashes can be almost as extensive as scratchbuilding but you end up with compromises! On my next project–I will be duplicating some scratchbuilt parts with rubber molds and resin so will see how that works.

Back to the NKP tender: It would seem that someone could measure the one at Noblesville, Indiana backed up with some blueprints and photos of the tenders in service and offer a retrofit kit for NKP USRA modelers. Perhaps they could also offer detail parts for the loco acquired wholesale from the parts detailers as part of the package or seperately?

17

Unfortunately, the market’s probably not large enough for a correct 22-RA tender as a resin casting, even if it came with a one piece body. The NKPHTS bought 500 custom-painted Branchline Blueprint 40’ boxcars almost seven years ago as a special modeling promotion, and they still have some left! If NKP fans and modelers aren’t willing to buy a straightforward plastic kit, what hope is there for a resin tender? Besides, it seems like I and MAYBE a dozen others are the only “serious” NKP steam modelers out there (at least those showing themselves online), and we’re all satisfied with using Berkshire tenders as stand-ins (I’m superdetailing old Hobbyline Berk tenders).

As for detail parts, as soon as I can find a photoetcher who’s used to dealing with hobby parts and doesn’t want my left kidney as payment, I’ll be doing SOME parts as brass frets. Specifically, the sheet brass elements that I now need to scratchbuilt in quantity like the air pump shields, the steam dome throttle shield, and the five-sides headlight numberboard. No one has ever done these parts before, and they’re mandatory for all of my Mike conversions. I may only need four of the 22-RA tenders, but I need 15 pairs of the pump shields!

18

Not true, According to NKP locomotive documentation There were no NYC H6s on the roster. The NKP Had all USRA Designed engines either from Baldwin, Brooks, Alco or from some railroads like LE&W and Purdy & Co. there were none from the NYC at all.

19

There’s an utterly amazing amount of misinformation in this thread. Please disregard EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE COMMENTS FROM RAY BREYER (ORSONROY). He knows what he’s talking about, and he obviously paid close attention when he read John Rehor’s book on the subject, plus numerous articles in the NKP Historical Society Magazine.

A VERY simplified history: The NYC was marginally involved in ownership of the LE&W Mikes because NYC controlled LE&W at the time of their construction. NYC Mikes were not all of USRA design. The first ones were based on the NYC H-5, and were purchased before the existence of the USRA. Then a few light USRA 2-8-2’s were purchased. Then several versions of copies of the light USRA Mike. Then 20 USRA heavy 2-8-2’s were acquired with the long tern lease of the W&LE in 1949.

Tom