Just wanting to know , How do I install simple bi colour signals ? Do I need to have block detection on my layout first or not, maybe I need JMRI?
This aspect of modelling is totally new to me so I have no idea where to start, I know some may think im crazy for not having blocks in my layout it is a big layout (4.8mtsx2.4mts) but hey we learn as we go !!
Can I just buy signals and add them or do I need to do the block wiring first ? If I do, is it hard to add to a layout that is already is running? I don’t know where I go from here to get signals operating or how I go about it, What do I do??
Wow. Just having answered that question for my HO scale around the room layout, I got to say it is a big question. I refer you to WaynesTrains.COM. The bottom line though is that if you want some very simple logic to animate lights, you can get simple circuit board implementations.
If you would like signals to automatically show indication of train being resent ahead of it, then you must have block detection. If you would like to incorporate turnout positions in the signalling, then you need DCC turnout control with a PC running some sort of a control software.
I user Digitrax BLD168 for detection, SE8C to drive turnouts and signals and a PC connected through Digitrax PR3 and running JMRI.
I have to warn you: not cheap! Just the above setup was $350, and the cheapest cost of signals themselves plus some wiring and assorted board worked out to be $12 per signal so for 20 signals it would be $240. So I am looking at $600. My layout when fully signaled will be $1000+ for signalling and I am doing this on a relatively cheap basis- ie I am not using NWSL or BLMA signals which can run up to $30+ per head.
If you really want the signals to operate in a prototypical manner, then you will need some sort of train detection. If you just want signals that change color, it can be as simple as wiring them to a toggle switch that you throw manually.
I use my signals as turnout position indicators. That’s kind of a middle-of-the-road approach. It’s simple, the signals actually tell me something and it doesn’t require a lot of expensive stuff. If you are using Tortoises, you can just connect the signals to them to make this work. Otherwise, you may need latching relays to control the signals. The method for doing this depends on what kind of turnouts you are using and how you are driving them.
my turnouts are thrown with cobalt motors they can be controlled with dcc but mine are just done with a toggle , which are the same as tortoise machines I don’t know if you can get the cobalts in us . I live in Australia
For ‘working’ signals, you will need the following:
Detection - Either current sensing between the rails or IR/photo detection. The current sensing is closer to prototype, but does require resistor modification of metal wheels sets.
Logic/Interface - You will need circuitry to ‘read’ the detection devices and make the decision what color to light each signal. The Digitrax components can provide the interface, and JMRI can provide the logic. There are also commercial systems available. Note that the Digitrax components will work on an NCE system, as they are not connected to the DCC system.
Signals - These can be scale trackside signals, panel signals or computer screen signals.
All of this can get quite expensive really fast. My layout has 8 blocks of ABS detection/trackside signals - About $450 worth of ‘stuff’. And this is really just a ‘simple’ application. I pre-gapped and set up the layout for the signals back in 1988, and installed ‘dummy’ Bachmann signals as ‘place holders’ until I could afford the real thing.
I have several N scale T-Trak modules that I have installed working three color signals on. I use current detection to activate some relays. It is not expensive, works with DCC or DC and they get a lot of interest at the shows I display them at. Since the signals are on modules and get assembled differently at the shows I made them to operate the same no matter what the module arrangement turns out to be. I have short detection blocks using NCE BD20 current detectors, at $11.50 each. Each signal uses four DPDT 12 volt DIP relays at $1.45 each and four 16 pin Dip sockets at $0.20 each. A printed circuit board from Radio Shack holds the relays and they are interconnected with flat 6 wire telephone cable and sockets.
When the first axle of the locomotive passes the insulated joint into the first block the current detector energizes one relay and the signal turns Red. When the train reaches the second block about 10-12 feet away that signal turns Red and the first signal turns Yellow. With the train reaching the third block the signal turns Red, the second signal turns Yellow and the first signal turns Green and so on around the layout. Future plans have double headed Home signals showing routes through switching areas.
The Cobalt machines do have contacts built in, just like Tortoises. The simplest wiring is to use an external power source. Run one side of the power to the common post of one of the SPDT contact sets on the machine. Run one wire from each of the other posts of that SPDT to each of the lights on the signal (assuming a simple Red/Green arrangement) and then run the other side of the both lights back to the power supply. If you are using LEDs, then you need to be conscious of the polarity, and you’ll also need a resistor in the circuit.
Alternately, you should be able to wire LEDs directly in series with the drive power to the Cobalt mechanism. EDIT: No, you can’t do this. See Randy’s response below. Seriously, it’s hard to imagine a better information source than this forum, isn’t it?
If you are primarily interested in cosmetic signaling, you may animate signals simply and fairly inexpensively with a product like Logic Rail’s Block Animator or Signal Animator
This is a simple illustration of how to wire a two-color signal as a turnout position indicator using a Tortoise.
I included a 1K resistor. If you are using incandescents, don’t use the resistor. LEDs are polarized, so I’ve shown that. These are the pinouts of a Tortoise. I don’t know what they are for a Cobalt machine, but I’m sure that’s on the wiring diagram that came with it.
Very interesting stuff. This has got me interested in adding some visual turnout indicators near my mainline turnouts (per Mister Beasley’s suggestion) as well as some pseudo-block mainline signals using the Logic Rail Signal Animator that Cuyama points out. I won’t go the whole-hog prototype block approach but some kind of compromise that the grandkids and I will enjoy.
I use the Logic Rail Signal Animator system that Cuyama mentioned,and I’m very happy with it. By using one photocell near the start of the block in series with another further out,I get “block detection” that works well on a one-man layout. If there is a turnout at the start of the block,I use 2 of the signal animators,and run the optical circuits through one side of my Blue Point turnout controller’s DPDT switch (I use the other side to energize the frog). This way the signal(s) function as both block detector and turnout indicator. If you have a large layout,this can get a bit “pricey”,but wiring is very simple,and easy to install. Again,probably best suited to a one man operation.
ok ,so I have some things to think about when it comes signalling I think im going to go more prototypical using maybe photocell like ‘middleman’ the way I go will depend on the answers to my next question.
But here is my next dilemma!!
Do I have to have a separate bus for each block? or do I keep my bus just how it is?
OR
do I just have to insulate both rails at the point where I want the blocks to start and finish? I do have feeders on every section of track so im guessing that’s where my power will come from
I know squat about block wiring so I need as much help as I can get.
The Logic Rail Signal Animators I use are not true block detection. The signal changes from green to red when a train passes over a photocell(or an infra-red sensor) that you place between the tracks.When the train clears the sensor there is a delay of 10 or 30 seconds(you select this by changing a jumper),then the signal goes to yellow (or dark,if yellow is not an option),it remains in this state for another 10 or 30 seconds before returning to green.
The track is not a part of the Logic Rail circuit,so you don’t need to change your track wiring. With some additional operating rules (if you leave a train in the “block” make sure it’s stopped over one of your sensors),it can provide a very realistic simulation of block signals.
Others here can give you a much better idea of what is involved to get true block detection.With my medium sized,one man operation,the cost and work involved in prototypical detection outweighed the benefits.
Whatever method you decide on,I think once you see a signal change as the train passes,you’ll be glad you got into this part of the hobby.
I prefer current detection for signal operation. Unlike the Atlas current detectors, DC only, the NCE BD-20 current detectors will work with DCC or DC. The track feeder for the block is passed through the coil on the detector so the detector can be placed anywhere in the block that is conveinient. With DCC if you want to leave a train in the block with a loco attached the detector will detect the current drawn by the decoder even if it is dispatched with the headlight off.
ok ,so I have some things to think about when it comes signalling I think im going to go more prototypical using maybe photocell like ‘middleman’ the way I go will depend on the answers to my next question.
But here is my next dilemma!!
Do I have to have a separate bus for each block? or do I keep my bus just how it is?
OR
do I just have to insulate both rails at the point where I want the blocks to start and finish? I do have feeders on every section of track so im guessing that’s where my power will come from
I know squat about block wiring so I need as much help as I can get.
All block detection systems are different, so you should read the instructions for the system you are going to consider. Basically, you need to insulate one rail of each block at the ends. Then all the feeders for the isolated rail in each block need to be tied together. Then that wire goes to your detection system.
Signals and block detection are not plug-and-play. You say that you don’t know squat about block wiring - - - so you will need to the research and learn it. There are no step by step instructions except from the block detection system manufacturers showing how THEIR systems are connected and work.
The signals link at Waynes-Trains.com is an excellent one. If you haven’t been there yet, you should.
30 blocks x $35.00 ea per detector = $1050.00 -ergo- is quite out of the question.
LION cut a pair of gaps about 4 inches apart. The power is bridged across the 4" gap, leaving a 4" section with now power. When the locomotive crosses the gap it applies voltage to the isolated track which in turn pulls a relay. Once you can pull a relay, you can do any thing you want with the system.
Drawbacks: Locomotives must be long enough to bridge the gap (LIONS use 48 wheel pickup on 6 car subway trains); Voltage must be high enough to pull the relay. (LIONS use 10.5 volts to pull a 12v relay without any problem.)
