How do RR:s and in house switchers exchange cars?

Trains Magazine General Discussion
1

What I’m woundering is how the actual set out and pick up of cars to and from an industry with an inhouse swicher are carried out.

For example:

Where does it take place, inside or on the lead in to the industry, out on the main or maybe the in house switchers them self pick up the cars some place away from the plant?

If the RR goes inside the plant for the exchange what do they do with the cars in the train not going to the industry (if their are any), leave them on the main or take them inside?

What does the RR crew do, and what does the in house switcher do?

How often do they exchange cars, once a day, less more often?

Do the exchange always take place at a specific time?

Are there any big differences between different commodities/businesses?

Any other important/interesting considerations?

I know there are probably many ways to do this, but if you could give me some answers of how it’s typical done (or if there is one way that is more common), I would appreciate it.

/Mattias

2

Wow, several different ways in fact.

A lot depends on the contractual agreement between the carrier and the shipper…most of the time, there is a siding or a designated track inside the industry where outbound cars are left, and inbounds cars are spotted.

More often than not, the “house switcher” can not come out on the main line to retrieve cars, so the local carrier will spot the inbounds as a group inside the plant and pull the out bound cars from a specified track.

Sometimes these tracks are one and the same, which means you hold onto the cars designated for that plant, reach into the plant and come against the out bounds, pull them and shove them back against your other cars on the main, thus clearing a track for you to spot the inbounds.

As for what we do with the cars in our train not destined for that plant, we cut away and leave them on the main line…normally you don’t want to take another customers cars inside some one else’s plant for safety reasons and because if something does go wrong, you will have “trapped” another customers cars in a foreign plant.

And how you work a plant or industry depends if it is a facing point move, or a trailing point move, a shove or a simple drag by, and if the customer wants single cars spotted in a particular location, broken up or left as a group…

As for time frames, that depends on the industry.

Lots of times, they order products ahead of their production schedule, and use the railcar as a mobile storage unit, paying a daily “lease” on the car…but they can also run on a tight schedule, and need a “just in time service” where you have to have the cars in place by a specific date and time.

That service cost a little more than usual, but for a lot of companies, that is the best choice, depending on what they make or produce.

An example of the former would be Westway Trading company, here on the Houston Ship channel.

They buy and ship low gr

3

In the case of Inland Steel that has ossibly thirty switchers the IHB has a yard outside the mill fence where they park the cars. The mill switchers take over and handle all inside moves.

4

here in defiance Csx places the cars to a point at gm then their rr crew takes over.the same with omnisource and metal management which use tractormobiles for the cars.csx also places cars in a siding for the maumee and western.the elevators at hamler and standley have trackmobiles.the I&O can pick up cars at either siding at hamler.I’ve seen in marion ohio ns and csx change cars where 1 ns engine pulls their cars away and another one shoves csxs once he clears.NS has to switch all our cars at the factory I work at.there was talk about getting a trackmobile but so far its just been talk.

stay safe

joe

5

The basic tenant of rail service to a shipper/consignee, is that the shipper/consignee is entitled to one placement of a car at it’s plant, they get charged intraplant switch charges for each subsequent movement of the car to other spots in the plant. The 2nd tenant of rail service is that the consignee is to receive their cars in a timely manner, otherwise demurrage will accrue for cars that held in excess of the allowable time.

Large companies that deal with a relatively high number of cars, that are either loaded or unloaded at multiple locations in the plant normally end up building or leasing a track(s) from the railroad for the delivery of the cars to their account. They will then handle the cars from this track(s) using non-railroad personnel and equipment as is necessary for the operation of the plant. The outbound from the plant will be delivered to railroad crews on a designated track(s). Where companies do their own in plant switching, only demurrage charges end up accruing for holding the cars an excessive time.

6

Thanks for the answers, very informative, exactly what I were looking for.

Ed, you say you store cars for Phillips in your yard, is it your railroad that has collected the cars or have Phillips sent them there?

BaltACD is it the industry or the RR that pay the demurrage charges?

/Mattias

7

At the Bucyrus Erie plant in South Milwaukee Wisconsin (the one that was subject of a multi part article in Railroad Model Craftsman a year or two ago), the UP, formerly C&NW, main has a trailing point siding where the local heading east (south) backs the empties or loads for B-E into a spur that has a turnout that makes it a two track siding.

The empties or loads it is to pick up are on the other track of that siding.

At the other end of the two track siding it again converges into one track which in turn is switched by the Bucyrus Erie plant switchers. The interesting thing about the plant switchers is that the entire plant and its track, which is very extensive, is so arranged that only the south facing coupler of the locomotives ever gets used – unless they need to double head to move a particularly stubborn car. The plant switchers NEVER approach the end of the siding that the railroad itself serves. Many years ago they had a bad side swipe and derailment in South Milwaukee between the plant switcher and a mainline freight.

If you modeled this (and I will on my layout) I suspect the center parts of the sidings could actually be electrically dead because neither switcher actually ever goes there! On a model railroad this could be a logical place to have one part be DC and the other part be DCC.

Dave Nelson

8

Mattias,

This may take a while, so get a cup of coffee…

First, I will have to give you an idea of where I work and what we do, and introduce you to a term not often heard by railfans…SIT, or Storage in Transit.

I work for the PTRA, a neutral switching/ terminal railroad in Houston, which serves the Houston Ship Channel industrial areas, both the north and south sides of the channel.

Our Class1 member lines are BNSF, UP, and the TexMex, (KCS).

The Class 1 roads discovered long ago that there was no way each railroad could build their own tracks into the area around the ship channel., not enough real estate for them to build yards, nor any room for them to lay multiple tracks into these refineries…so in 1924, the City of Houston formed the PTRA, Port Terminal Railroad Association, with our own tracks and yards in the area.

We serve the Houston area, Pasadena and the Deer Park refineries, the Houston Public Docks, and several grain elevators.

The class 1 roads deliver their interchange cars to us, at either North Yard, or Pasadena Yard, and pick up their out bound trains from these yards…we re switch the cars they deliver into blocks or customer specific trains, and deliver the cars into the densely packed industrial areas, like the refineries, pull and spot the cars, and return the out bounds for interchange with our class 1 member lines.

We have seven major yards…on the north side, there is North Yard, designated interchange point and major location for inbound traffic, American Yard, used for both storage and switching of trains for the North Shore industries, Penn City yard, used to further block smaller trains for specific customers, like the City of Houston Water Treatment plant. (think lots of chlorine tank cars)

Cargill grain and fertilizer is also on the north shore, we run three to six daily grain trains to them, and pull the empty trains, returning them to North

9

Ed:

That was a great summary of what you do. Thanks. Sometimes we tend to watch a train go by and get all excited about the locomotives…sort of the sexy part of the train. I personally like the business aspect of railroading. What is being hauled? Where? How long does it take (the Trains map of the month showing 4 cars out of Houston was classic)? Revenue? Value of the lading? etc.

You really nailed down several questions I have always had regarding the movement of cars on locals, how the cars are ordered, stored, etc. $95 per day for storage, plus switching seems like a really good revenue producer.

I have a customer near Chicago that has quite an operation. He has a pneumatic bulk tanker trucking service and has about 10 track yard with loads of covered hoppers/plastics. No doubt these are handled by your railroad. He stores the loads, then receives orders for delivery within the midwest. He does well, really well at this business.

Ed, do you know about how many cars are originated out of Houston per day? It must be enormous. Thanks again for the detailed explanation.

ed

10

Ed

I’m continually amazed by the detail you go into in your posts, especially when you describe the more complicated movements the PTRA handles, I have the picture of a massive jigsaw puzzle, in my mind’s eye, a puzzle that is under optimal conditions, continually fluid. The planning and technical support this fluidity requires, along with the skill and savvy of the yard crews I’m sure must be seen to be believed. No wonder you know the rules as you do!

I would be interested to know, if you are able/permitted to tell me, how many crews the PTRA would have on a given shift, and in total daily, to service the kind of overall operation you describe. I would think it’s quite a large number, from what I’ve read from your posts and seen in your pictures, and given that you and your crew appear to work a particular set of switches and tracks. Multiply this by the size of your yard and the number of yards in the PTRA system and the number of crews would be considerable. Or are there ‘fixed location’ crews and in addition ‘floating crews’ that move around as the volume and location of business dictates. Or is it pretty much a ‘flat out’ operation in all areas. If it is all flat switched, I would imagine the whole operation is complicated that much more.

The reason I ask is because fluidity would appear to come at a pretty high operational cost, especially if it is comprimised as it was when UP and SP merged and the whole works ‘ground to a halt’ for lack of a better description. I would think that experience has created a whole series of operating protocols or principles for you at PTRA that would verge on the status of the Ten Commandments. If you are free to share these I would be grateful. It would help me understand even better the complexity and scale of operation within which you work.

And…if you are able to do so, I WILL go and get a coffee! I’m sure it would be a lengthy and fascinating explanat

11

ed…

No clue as to how many cars…

But to give you an idea of the sheer amount of rail space within the limits of Harris county, here is a list of yards and who owns them.

BNSF yards…

Pierce,classification and staging.

Casey (SIT)

BNSF Dayton (small SIT)

Old South Yard

New South Yard

Milby Street Yard and roundhouse (includes heavy engine repair and a working turntable, former Santa Fe and HB&T)

UP

Dayton (SIT)

Spring (SIT) and regular freight switching (classification and forward blocking)

Lloyd yard, Auto racks as far as the eye can see.

Settagast, flat switching…former MoPac and HB&T yard.

Englewood hump, major classification yard,

Englewood ramp, intermodal yard.

East yard…classification and inbound storage for Englewood.

Basin, (former HB&T) local flat switching.

Booth, UP storage.

Eureka, serves local aggregates supplier, gravel, ballast and crushed limestone, plus a few cement plants.

Barbours Cut, Intermodal dock.

Coady, serves Baytown refineries.

Durham, used for car storage.

Cedar Bayou yard, was used for the US Steel mill, now leased by Econorail for car storage and local industrial switching.

Strang, mini hump outside Pasadena, serves the local petrochemical plants.

PTRA.

North Yard, major interchange with UP, BNSF and TexMex.

Serves the ship channel at large.

American yard.

Pen City Yard. Both classification yards used to build customer specific trains.

Old City Yard…(built in 1924, three tracks dedicated to a single customer, now West Way Molasses)

Manchester Terminal, original steam ship berth for Houston, serves diverse customers, from the old Hughes Ammunition and Tooling plant to a cotton press, Elco rice elevator, and the local petrochemical plants.

Pasadena, serves the majority of the south shore petrochemical refineries, including Shell Deer Par

12

Ed your explanations rock. As was said, the business side gets overlooked by ‘cool’ factors. I, also, have just gotten more curious and interested in how the process of your job works. Thanks to you for opening my eyes a bit more.

13

Ed:

A blog or a regular series of internet articles would be great. There is a guy up here that works on the CN (ex IC) who has written articles on the net for about 4 years. His name is Tuch and not only does he have stories, but the ability to write about the stories. He has a book coming out this fall.

You have the same ability.

ed

14

Industies pay demurrage charges to the railroads for the time railroad owned cars are held in excess of the allowable Free Time.

Railroads pay ‘Per Diem’, which is actually an hourly charge, between themselves for the time that ‘Foreign’ railroad cars are on a railroads property as a form of car rental.

Private owner cars, cars with an X as the final letter of the car initial, earn milage chages for the miles they are operated. Car rental on Private cars is a financial matter between the car’s owner and the shipper/consignee’s that use them, the railroads are not involved in private car rental. Demurrage does not accrue on Private owner cars.

15

Nice link to a bunch of photos of railroads around Houston…15 pages.

Some things have changed, of course, the hump at Englewood has been rebuilt…Union Station is gone…but all I all a nice collection of photos.

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?offset=0&where=|||Texas%2C+USA|Houston||||1|||||||||Texas%2C+USA|Houston||||||||||||||||

16

I hope the guys over at the model railroad part of the forum have been reading this thread. Ed’s lengthy and detailed post is yet another reminder for anyone considering what kind of model railroad they want – mainline passenger trains running point to point or in circles is one thing, but it is local freight switching that can involve and hold the interest of a bunch of operators for an entire operating session. Terminal, jointly owned, belt line, or loose car local railroads all offer real possibilities for laying challenging trackwork, building and using a variety of cars and locomotives, and – when the layout is all built – satisfying operating sessions. Not so many mountains and tunnels and dramatic waterfalls that show up on the covers of the major magazines but plenty of railroad interest.

Dave Nelson

17

Here in NW Indiana, I have always enjoyed watched the EJE and IHB trains. They serve the same purpose, switching the steel mills, refineries, and local industries. Lots of variety.

ed

18

Bet you can guess what the prototype for my last layout was!

Although I really like the main line stuff, and the streamlined passenger trains, after having done this for a living the last 11 years, industry and local switching have given me a new outlook.

Think of it in this way…what I do is the first step in what you, the mainline fan at rail side get to see.

Plus, the scratch building potential for any industrial complex is as extreme as you want…if you can think of it, somewhere, some company has probably built something like it.

Often, out in the refineries, it is easy to imagine an alien landscape, or something from the Blade Runner movie…get down into the really old sections, and you step back in time…we have found a few old tank cars sill on journal bearings, used for scale cars in the Diamond complex…and a old pair of Alco S2s stashed out at Inter Continental Terminals, used as a guard shack/coffee spot at their private yard.

There is a place in the Shell Deer Park refinery where three diamonds cross our main line, less than 100 feet apart from each other…the tracks twist and turn and pop out of alleys all over the place.

And these industries are cheek and jowl with each other.

In HO, a four or five foot long section could fit two or three big “complexes” quite handily, more if you compress them some.

Often, we will be working in one plant with our locomotive in front of another.

Add in the direct switching, from plant to plant, where one industry is supplying their next door neighbor by rail, and the possibilities of hours of moves for a modeler get real interesting.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=InterContinental+Terminals+Pasadena+Texas&ie=UTF8&

19

Besides,

Look at all the neat loads we get to play with on a Terminal/Switching railroad…

20

Well Ed

I get the distinct feeling that you are going to make us work for that knowledge of PTRA operations. For those of us who do not model it can you suggest a format that might be helpful? Clearly there will be no sitting back with a coffee while you teach. What I’m thinking of doing as my part of understanding this is to diagram the yard as best I can from Google, unless there’s another schematic available and then get the ‘wiz’, that’s you, to set us operating problems or a daily switchlist of some kind and make us figure it out. You provide the crew and other operating parameters and then people like me get to make fools of ourselves trying to figure it out.

In my other life as a power engineer and powerhouse operator this is how we worked. Operating problems were a significant part of our TQ examinations. It worked 30 years ago. I’m sure it would be of some help now.

Just a suggestion.

Charlie

Chilliwack, BC