I have a moderate sized layout. A twice around single track mainline with two passing sidings and a relatively large yard. Between a combination of relays, current directing turnouts and simple logic I’ve really cut down on the number of toggle switches that I need for cab selection and can run two trains in opposite directions and only need to make sure that I switch the turnouts. In the future I plan to use motorized turnouts and use one half of a DPDT toggle switch to power a route(this will be easier than a relay and I can use the direction of the toggle to indicate turnout direction). Anyway, I’m wondering how others control their layout and perhaps what they see as pluses and minuses in what they, or I am doing.
Thanks,
Mark
Hi Mark,
On my website is an article on how I wired and made a control panel for my H0 Badger Creek Lumber Compamy.
Top left called “Wiring a layout”
cheers
Paul
http://www.badger-creek.co.uk
Hi Paul;
That’s the kind of idea I’m interested in hearing. By the way I previously enjoyed viewing your website as it is featured on the NMRA website page.
Thanks
The best way is with DCC; our club uses Easy DCC.
DCC allows you to operate just like the real railroads operate.
Good luck.
Ron
I agree for a club with a large layout and adequate aisle space DCC is the best, I mainly operate alone or with one other person. I’m more interested in modeling than in spending time and money on DCC(I have almost 40 engines that I would need to convert). I’m generally happy with the way I operate I’m looking to improve upon my methods of wiring and operation.Thanks,
Mark
I started out with double cab control for my 5x12 HO layout. Just as the wiring was completed the local hobby shop had a clearance sale on MRC Command 2000 DCC systems so I indulged. After having operated with both systems I would never go back to cab control (except perhaps for a small display layout). I understand the resistance of people with large fleets of motive power. Intalling decoders in 50 plus engines is a lot of work requires a thick pocket book.
I just built a fair sized layout and wired it for cab control with Atlas components I had laying around. Thus I was able to get up and running before building a more complex control panel with more efficient components. I`ll probably use dcc in some of my newer locos.
Art
Mark: I can appreciate the seemingly daunting task of converting to DCC, but it is the future. I have heard the arguments before. “I have too many locomotives”. A) One of the specific design features of DCC is it’s ability to operate any analog (non-decodeded) loco, on address “00”. Most new locos are coming out already decoder equipped, or at least decoder ready. This makes it a lot easier. Besides, of your 40+ locos, how many do you run in one session? I’ll bet only one or two. You can add decoders as time and budget permits. “It costs too much”. If you’re going to compare costs of cab vs. DCC, you also have to add in the costs of your rolls of wire, toggle switches, relays, control pannels, and don’t forget tens of hours of wiring time. With DCC, you hook up two wires, and you’re good to go. Whith these factors in mind, the $180.00 for a good starter set is no more expensive than two power packs, plus all the above mentioned hardware. As for only being one person, I too mostly operate by myself, and I have a medium-sized double track main, where I usually have two and up to four trains running at the same time, all controlled by me. With DCC, you don’t have to worry what block you’re on, or having to throw anything but the turnout. All tracks are “hot” all the time, which really gives you the feel of running the loco, and not the track. In fact, DCC excells at running small, intimate layouts with lots of switching. I also have to add my voice to those who say “I will never go back to cab control”. In another aspect of “control” of your layout, I use the Albion Software program “Ship It!” to generate printed switchlists. Each train (one Eastbound, the other Westbound) has twelve switching situations to perform in each session. Sometimes you have to jump from one track to the other to switch your industry, then jump back. Sometimes run-arounds are required, and some are simple. I couldn’t do all this with cab control and remain sane! All I suggest is you go to some one else’s layout tha
One of the things that makes this hobby so interesting is the myriad of ways of accomplishing tasks and overcoming engineering problems. I think most of us have a philosophey toward the hobby and one of the corner stones of mine is the “kis” (Keep It Simple) principle. (See my message on return loops in this forum) this applies to control of the empire especially. Yes, I agree that for realism in operation and flexability DCC is the answer to so many problems. However, even if I did not have over 200 pieces of motive power and were starting again, I would still not use it for several solid reasons as follows:
- Kids! I have kids that love to run trains. I also have a 12 X 50 double track railroad that depends on return loops and hidden continuous run option tracks for realistic operation. I tried a DCC system from a friend and found collisions to be a real concern especially in hidden areas during heavy traffic. With good old block control this was never a problem.
- Expense. Wow! I buy a 100.00 engine then have to install a decoder that ranges from $30.00 on up to $100.00, not to mention retro-fitting of all those engines already on the roster. No way. For some this is not a concern, but it is for me.
- Longevity. With the growth and expanding aspects of the hobby, particularly in electronics, I worry about how long the decoder I might need will be available. After all, how long was that pentium II been top of the line? No matter what path technology takes, I will always be able to control my trains with old fashioned cab control, even if I have to resort to screws in the facia with track leads attatched and clips to connect the throttle to the block or even sockets like the old 19th century telephone switch boards.
These are three good reasons for me not to switch to DCC or radio control.
In my early layouts I did not even have standard block control. I used a CTC method to control each of the two mains, but each line had a throttle rather than each cab. The ma
What DCC system can a person get started in and equip 2 locos with their own throttles for $180.00?
James;
Thanks for the info. It sounds like you and I have similar ideas. I too give priority to my yard leads out into the main line and in the future if I have multiple operators plan to add cabs for specific switching areas. I think the power routing turnouts make switching a yard easier than it would be with DCC since you would not only need to direct your turnout but also key in your loco. Three questions though:
- Do you use common rail wiring. On my layout I insulate both rails. However, I think this was unnecessary.
- I’m thinking of using Tortoise switch machines with a DPDT toggle to control the machine, direct power to a block from say a siding to the main, and to indicate turnout position. I think this would be a simple and easy method and reduce alot of wiring.
- I use Shinohara turnouts in which both rails always have some polarity even if they may be the same, and anticipate the opportunity for a short if I’m going into an turnout thrown the wrong direction. Any knowledge of this as a problem.
By the way I recognize your point about avoiding collisions. I’ve avoided several when I forgot to throw a turnout, but again this brings up my question about shorting.
I appreciate your opinion and response as well as the other proponents of DCC. I also recognize you’re knowledgeable from your other posts, and I’m not even sure that I will NEVER use DCC. It’s just that I find my way of operating easy and enjoyable and am interested in exchanging ideas about it. I typically keep about 10 locos on my layout. My future goal is to build a layout with surround staging as outlined on page 22 of 2001 Model Railroad Planning and I think my methods of controlling would be ideally suited to this type of layout.(i.e. routing power based on switch position, alot of mainline running with different trains with a couple of areas for switching using power routing turnouts)
Even if you don’t agree, I hope you’re enjoying the conversation, as I am.
Regards,
Mark
Hi Mark
- Yes, I use common rail wiring for my layout EXCEPT where I have power-routing turnouts. The siding these feed needs to be double insulated or a short can occur in some situations. The rule is that the stock rail can be continuous, but the point or frog side must be insulated. In other words, if you have a passing track you must double gap the siding and control it with a toggle. If you have Klambach’s book “Your Guide to Easy Model Railroad Wiring” look at page 41, fig. 5-9.
- I agree. If you are using a motor to move a turnout, your idea is the best way to do it, and as you say you can handle several tasks simultaniously with the same switch.
- See number one for this one. My curved turnouts are Shinora as well. Just remember the rule.
As far as collisions go, it is nearly impossible with cab control. As soon as an engine enters the wrong block it will try to back out. If you let the loco set there it can cause damage, but then I have time delay fuses on main feeders and my packs all have built-in protection as well. Normaly, what will happen is the accordian effect, but this beats a head-on with brass engines at speed. The worst we have had is an engine going the same direction pulling into the side of another train at a crossover, but this is rare as the first train passing the area will derail if the turnout is not in propper position and secondly, an accidental throw is rare since a person activating the turnout on purpose is going to be looking at that section and see the first train.
I appreciate all your detailed info. Hopefully we’ll hear from others who have other ideas.
Thanks,
Mark
Mark:
I operate my layout with Block switches and common rail (first time I’ve used common rail) and I operate on a friend’s layout with DCC.
If you run into the from end of a yurnout that’s set the wrong way, you get a short. You could use a pile of extra relay contacts or something to make a dead rail over a locomotive length long, but that’s a lot of extra work. Remember that if you do that on the prototype, you get several days off to consider your sins.
If you use DCC, your short will probably kill the whole layout and everyone will know who did it!
Common rail wiring is fine, but it helps to have section breaks for troubleshooting.
Enjoy!
David
Hi Mark
I currently have a 12x14 N-Scale layout. To avoid spending more time under my layout with wiring than to work on the visible part I decided to go DCC. So I bought a Digitrax BigBoy system and some decoders. The wiring work is reduced to track feeders. No block wiring and no toggle switches to install. I have a master track feeder which runs around the layout and there are small wires leading from this master to every (!!!) track joint. Of course everything is color coded so I never had to search for a short circuit. The turnout switches are controlled using stationary decoders. To hook up a DCC system of about this size will take you an evening or two. But that’s just half of the work to be done. Another job is to install decoders in your locos. That’s the only minus I see in DCC. If you have a large rooster it will cost you a lot of money. Currently I have converted 24 Atlas and 58 Kato locos to DCC… I also replaced the BigBoy system with a Chief II just because of the 8amps output.
All in all I can say that Digital Control makes your life and work a lot easier and your wallet a lot lighter…
have fun
Sandro
Hi Mark
Yes, I am enjoying the discussion very much and I feel the same way. If I didn’t have to worry so much about the kids and collisions I might consider DCC in the future as well. I really don’t see the issue as a right or wrong thing. I see it as a personal preference thing. I think your ideas of controling blocks using the turnouts are good ones. I basicaly do the same with my staging loops. I am not using selective turnouts, but I do use the same snap relay that powers the frog to control block direction since trains always enter the loops from the same side. Since I have a double track main I follow prototype practice and use one main for West bounds and the other for East. One exception to this is local and it never goes to staging, the second is passenger and a high priority milk train that sometime invade the “wrong” side of the road to pass slower and less criticle traffic. I didn’t use dead end staging simply because with the loop it gives the illusion that the train has traveled on west and is now returning. The only snag here is a returning train would not be the same as when it left so I have a couple of run-arounds in the staging to rearrange the rolling stock. I don’t like to handle equipment with my hands because it wears on the weathering and accidents happen. Anyway, I think you have a good plan for controlling your layout.
Cheers
James
David;
What’s your feeling on Dc vs DCC? I’m also interested in the amount of work involved, wiring a layout vs installing decoders? Have you done anything to automate block selection on your Dc layout?
Thanks for the info,
Mark
I use the Digitrax Zepher with loconet ports for my UT4 walkaround throttle.
Sorry to bring up such an old thread, its interesting to see whats on page 1399![:D]
Call me old fashioned or simple, but my 31X11 foot shelf layout with double mainlines, visible stageing, a yard and town are controlled with Atlas controllers and two cabs, and all manual switches. I usually run alone and the controls allow for very relaxed operation, (slow and realistic actually) I can keep one running while switching, all at a very realistic tempo. The layout is 5 years old or so and has performed exceptioanlly well, even when I do have guests helping me out. I do want to get into DC powered sound units though. Someday?