Dear everyone, back in the days of timetable operation, most railroads had numberboards on their locomotives where the train’s number would be displayed. However, some, like Santa Fe and Canadian Pacific, did not. If you didn’t have numberboards, how would a train meeting you know which train you were, and consequently if it were safe to proceed? Also, why would locomotives not using numberboards still need classification lights or extra/section following flags?
First, train indicators were fairly rare. Only the Harriman Roads (UP< SP) used them. Everybody else used the engine no. for ID purposes. A train order would read,
No 99 eng 4458 meet no 832 eng no 4218 at Moorpark
In the event of a train having a “foriegn line” eng on the point the intials of the foriegn RR would be added
No 28 eng 4230 meet no 101 eng UP 936 at Colfax
This would explain why some roads (Santa Fe comes instantly to mind) used relatively huge engine numbers on the tender and others, like IC sufficed with only initials on the cab to identify the road.
If you were meeting a scheduled train, then you did not get an order setting the meet such as your example. The timetable set the location of the scheduled train so the number of the locomotive was irrelevant to opposing trains.
Non-scheduled trains were identified by the engine number and before that they were identified by the names of the conductor and the engineer.
I was an opr/towerman on the SP (as might have been inferred from my examples) for 11 years and it was common to set up meets for scheduled trains other than those in the timetable. Did you think that all trains ran on time all the time? Also there’s the little problem that schedules were sometimes only approximations. For example the SP W/B San Juoaquin dvn trains were numbered 801 to 807. All this meant was that a frt lving LA Yard between 1201 AM and 600 AM would run as a section of no 801. Trains leaving from 601 AM to 12 noon would be a section of no803. This would be a separate ID from its symbol, which in most cases would be something like MUG7-1, which would be the symbol for the first eMty EuGene leaving LA on the 7th day of the month. For train order operating conditions the train would be identified as First 801 eng 4212. Before some nit picker jumps on me, let me stipulate that, since all the eng numbers in my examples are steam engines and since the SP used train indicators to ID trains until the late 1960s SP train orders during steam operations would not need the eng number to ID the train, but the system would work like the illustrations for all those RRs that didn’t use train indicators.
In the case of an unscheduled train it would be run as an “extra” and would be IDd w/ both eng no and direction as Extra 4212 West. Locals and work trains (that might be going in various directions, over the course of their work day) were generally run as a work extra and would be identified as work extra 5715 (there, we finally got a diesel)
In the case of an unscheduled train it would be run as an “extra” and would be IDd w/ both eng no and direction as Extra 4212 West. Locals and work trains (that might be going in various directions, over the course of their work day) were generally run as a work extra and would be identified as work extra 5715 (there, we finally got a diesel)
Trains that were off their schedule could still be met without the engine number specified. The train order given to opposing trains would be in the form, “Train #3 of this date will operate three hours and twenty five minutes late between A-town and B-city” Trains in opposition of #3 would then have an additional 3’25" time to clear #3 at all stations from B-City to A-town.
It would take a lot of confidence to meet a train without looking for an engine number but that was the way it was done for years when there were a lot more trains on the line than there are now.
Let me re-iterate. I worked as a train order operator for 11 years on the SP and 1 year on the Milwaukee before transferring into train service as a brakeman where I worked for a further 2 years on the Milwaukee and 9 years as a brakeman on the BN, On a RR that did not use train indicators the ONLY safe method of identiying an opposing train was by the use of the engine number. W/O train indicators a train in a siding to meet an opposing train would need some means to know that the train that just went by was the one they were to meet. For example, you have an order reading “No 832 meet no 833 at moorpark.” How would you know that the train that went by on the main at Moorpark was not no 835 having run around a stalled no 833? In the course of working for three RRs form 1964 to 1988 and copying train orders for joint operations for the Santa Fe and UP, from the time the SP stopped using train indicatore in the late 60s, ALL used the engine number as train ID. In the event that the identifying number was on a trailing unit (frowned upon but occasionally happening) the number board on the lead unit was extinguished and the trailing unit’s number board was illuminated
In the example of the “run late” train order it would read:
No 99 engine 4458 run 1 hour 20 minutes late Chatsworth to East Santa Barbara
Another way of handling the problem would be a “wait” order
No 99 Eng 4458 wait at
Sanata Susana until 1015 AM
Moorpark 1030 AM
Camarillo 1040 Am
for no 832 eng 4212
If the dspr wanted to give the benefit of the order to other trains he would omit the stipulation “for no 832 eng 4212”. As originally written the order would cease to apply to no 99 if no 832 was in the clear for him at Moorpark, but he would need some way to identify the train in the siding at Moorpark, hence eng 4212
You came in near the end of scheduled operations. The system evolved over time. I have rule books from the 1890’s and you would be surprised how things were done. Railroads had engines with names and no numbers for a time. They ran schedules and made meets so please keep that in mind.
If train 835 was indeed now running ahead of train 833 then all trains meeting those two would get a train order making that clear or perhaps 835 would assume the schedule of 833. There were lots of creative ways to make it all work and keep the passengers and freight on the move.
Since we are displaying our pasts as qualifications, I too, was a T/O, I/O, DBTL, AgtTlgClk, Agt among other things in my railroad career. BTW, T/O = Train Order Operator (also known as the Telegrapher); I/O = Interlocking Operator; DBTL = DrawBridge Tender - Leverman; AgtTlgClk = Agent, Telegrapher, Clerk (AKA, Agent at a one man Agency); Agt = Agent multi-man Agency. I needed to be qualified (at first) with Morse since we still had actual telegraph stations. I, too, worked for the SP for nearly 30 years. I was qualified to dispatch, but declined to bid any regular jobs.
Now ------------
ARBFBE – in 1890, the change to having trains meet at non-open offices was just beginning. General Practice for most lines, was to give the order to the telegrapher and the train-order signal would act as a call-on and block indicator. If you were approaching a T/O signal with stop displayed, you would head into the siding and proceed to the station. If that stop indication was changing to proceed and then back to stop (repeating signal until acknowledged by the locomotive engineer), the train could proceed to the station prepared to pick up orders on the fly. If the signal was green (proceed or closed office), you would proceed down the main. Because of the system of dispatching and as you mentioned, names and no numbers on locomotives, meets were made open offices and only the telegrapher knew who was who. The trains themselves seldom picked up orders.
After all locomotives had engine numbers and the advent of the automatic block signal, it became rare for the system I have described above to exist. The trains picked up orders on the fly and were responsible for their own meets.
Jim Rice 4449 – You are correct in your descriptions above. I would just like to add that there were two methods of IDing a train - you have demonstrated one. The other, used nearly to the exclusion of your example on the Oregon Division, at least, was tha
Sorry, but in the above example of the “first system,” if all the trains were running on time, each would still have to know the number of which train it was meeting. How did the crews know this, without having a train order issued because of a late train?
-Daniel Parks
Because it was the schedule that you were working against. Your train had to be in the clear of any superior train running against you. His schedule was in the timetable as were all the other scheduled train in first class, second class and third class. When you went into the clear you could not leave until you met the train of that schedule. If the scheduled train was delayed before reaching your station you would sit there until that train arrived. The scheduled train would be carrying either dark marker lights (or no flags in the day) indicating that when the rear of his train was by your train you could leave or green markers (or green flags in the day) indicating another section or sections of that train were following and you could not leave. It was not the locomotive that you were meeting it was the schedule for that locomotive you were meeting.
If, indeed the train were behind schedule and you had an order specifying that condition then your train could continue ahead to another station and clear the scheduled, late train at that point. If you did not have such an order in your hands your train would have to be in the clear ahead of the schedule even if you had heard a rumor the train was behind schedule. Remember again it is the schedule of the train that the engineer and conductor are working against.
It must have been a real nightmare having to remember the scheduals of all the trains on your line back in them days. I don’t think I could do it without a cheat sheet, something like a string line style graph. I got a lot of respect for the guys that ran on timetabe on busy single track.
Chad… really quite simple… you read your orders and your timetable. Those two would basically tell you what to do. Once you learned how to read them it was pretty straight-forward. As everything else in RRing, it takes time and patience to learn.
Yes, but if you were on a railroad not using numberboards, you would need to know which locomotive was on which train. How would you know this in the “first system” described above?
Sincerely,
Daniel Parks
P.S. It seems much simpler and like much less work to just use numberboards and not have to worry about which engine got which train.
When I was working at Burbank Jct (first train order office west of LA) Trains would get an order called a register check that read:
Regular trains due Burbank Jct before 1234Am have arrived and left except No 832 eng 6312, No 834 eng 5718. No 836 has eng 6135.
In this example no 836 would not be due Burbank Jct but the eng no would be added for informational purposes (in the unlikly event it might be on its timetable time and no other order concerning it would need to be issued)
Train crews were reqired to check the register book when going on duty to determine what opposing trains had arrived and which ones were still out there but It would not be unusual for a crew to be on duty for hours before leaving and not be able to visually ascertain when an opposing train entered the yard, hence the issuance of the register check order at the end of double track.
PS Those green (or white) lights on the front of an engine aren’t markers, they’re class lights (or signals). The markers are at the rear of the train (and it’s not a train if they’re not there). For example, you’re in a siding to meet no 832 eng 6212 and eng 6212 shows up with 40 or 50 cars but no marker showing. You line the switch and leave only to come upon another 20 cars or so that no 832 left in order to double the hill. Oops!