I have two old diesels
a 2333p new york central and a 2243 santa fe.
Both are amazing considering they are 55-60 years old - does the new stuff stack up to this quality?
[#welcome] geedub,
Sorry to say but quality is missing in both Lionel and MTH unless you spend over $1000.00 for a locomotive. If you want quality in O gauge go with either Atlas trains or Williams trains.[2c]
Your old diesels are what they call post war stuff and they have quality built into them unlike a lot of today’s model trains and track.
Lee F.
2333’s uses the low geared horizontal drive and have no magnetraction. They are rather doggy compared to later models and don’t pull as well. Lionel had just started venturing into plastics with the 2333’s and had some problems. The paint flakes off of them easily if you’re not careful with them. 2243’s have a single motor and aren’t the greatest pullers either. Lionel added magnetraction starting with the 2343 Santa-Fe’s and 2353 NYC’s (these have twin motors and pull well).
The F3’s Lionel did in the 90’s up to the move to Orient do run much better than the two you mention. They have smooth running twin vertical motors, magnetraction, and better graphics. The drives are basically the same vertical motor drive Lionel came out with in the mid 50’s. The only real difference is Lionel used nylon idler gears on many of them. This is OK as long as you keep them lubricated and don’t abuse them. I have a set of ATSF freights from 94 and the idler gears appear to be metal. They are available in some of the most brilliant schemes Lionel ever put on F3’s such as GN Empire builder, Espee Black widow, and Florida East Coast.
I don’t own any of the new imported postwar celebration F3’s with pullmore motors so I honestly know how they stack up. Others can chime in I’m sure.
The new scale F3’sare the smoothest running, most powerful Lionel F3’s you can buy. They come equipped with command control, sounds, intricate detail, and crispy graphics. They are pricey but not $1,000. Due to the high level of detail, they do look out of place with postwar cars.
I own no MTH, however I have not had any significant quality problems with anything from Lionel made in the last 15 years. I also have had no trouble with K-line products, which are now made by Lionel.
On one occasion, I did have one small function of a radio receiver(R2LC) in a K-line engine go bad, but it was due to my error. Even I readily admitting it as such, the K-line tech insisted on sending me a replacement at no charge.
Most recently, my CW-80 transformer had a small problem with a sporadic whistle control, but Lionel promptly sent a replacement, again at no cost.
I don’t own expensive trains, either-my most expensive locomotive had a retail price of $400, although I paid significantly less for it used.
I wonder sometimes how the folks who complain of frequent trouble with their trains are treating them.
I am looking at a 2368 that was reproduction in 1998. I am impressed even with the lower end Lionel products - for instance my first train in 1972 is an 8040 (they go for 10-15 bucks on ebay) yet this little engine runs like the day i got it for christmas back in 1972. My two diesels i have are not high end but they are both from 1948 and 1955 - it amazes me that they still run so strong.
The 2368 looks cool and has some of the newer sound features - i hope i can have it for 30-40 years like these other trains.
Sorry to say you’re way off the mark there! I purchased 2 of the new scale F3 conventional units for $224.00 each. Smooth start ups and flawless running. I also added a Digital Dynamics EMD sound system. Check out my video of the F-3’s in action:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjtl7UEPU7w
[8D]…I even like your shadow in the background too…
hev [oX)]
I see the 2368 reproduction by williams and also one by lionel - pardon my lack of knowlege - but are these the same units - or is it two separate companies?
The 2368 PWC F3’s by Lionel are good engines. They have the old style vertical drive mentioned above along with magnetraction and pull as well as the postwar models. They also include Railsounds and command control.
Williams is a different company. Their 2368’s are good. But they have can motors and traction tires. They do not have command control nor do they have sounds. Just an electronic horn and bell.
Jon is right about conventional Lionel scale diesels. They don’t come with sounds and command control but they do come with horns and often smoke units. They are loaded with detail and the graphics are sharp. They cost a little more than Williams but are worth it considering the much higher level of detail and smoke units. The drives are similar to Williams and they preform and pull about the same.
I have the MTH Santa Fe’s. I think they are great [and I’m not a MTH fan]. The old ones do not have sound [except for a poor horn], no smoke nor command. Detail wise, my new ones are great.
I have the MTH Premier passenger set, http://www.mth-railking.com/detail.asp?item=20-2676-1. They are great runners. I’m very pleased with this set.
The “BELL & HORN” should be clarified here. The OLD Beep-Beep horn has been long gone for at least 10 years. It has been replaced with the “TRUEBLAST II” system, wich is a DIGITAL bell and horn. The HORN is the blast of diesel of 2-long, 2-short when you hit your “whistle/horn button”. If I recall, in real RR rules is the signal used at RR crossings(?)
With all of the diesels, (except RDC, 44 tooners,GP7) they come with dual can motors, with the ability to pull 30-40 freight cars. They’ll out pull any LIONEL diesel in a heart beat. The WILLIAMS scale Hudson only has ONE motor, and is rated with draw bar pull of 2.0. This equates out to 30-40 cars I believe.
No way do you need to spend a grand to have a decent running train engine.
As John Long was explaining, there are differences mechanically between the newer and older locos,as well as today’s lower end and high end locos. There’s also differences in detail and scale proportion.
All that aside, I run a load of what many would call "cheap’ locomotives. For example, the K-Line Alco FA and S-2 are not scale sized nor detailed locos. But they are adequate representations with suitable detail. I repaint them and add details where I want. I have zero problems with these locos… never have had to send one out for service. This goes the same for lower end Lionel locos and Williams.
Go to the other forum, and on a near daily basis, you can always find threads complaining about the quality of Lionel and MTH locomotives. But most of the time these are expensive high end locomotives with advanced details (which break off easily) and advanced electronics (which can often fail and often don’t have replacement parts available yet).
Geedub, your statement “I am impressed even with the lower end Lionel products - for instance my first train in 1972 is an 8040 (they go for 10-15 bucks on ebay) yet this little engine runs like the day i got it for christmas back in 1972” sums things up nicely. And my experience echoes yours.
The new high end locomotives are impressive without question. But in my view, although they are precision replicas, they lack the “soul” of some of the more simple, less expensive basic trains. Look at the postwar Lionel Alco FA or the duplicate Willaims version: it’s not prototypically scaled by any measure, but it sure does have the “feel” of the real thing.
Everyone talks about the “magic of Lionel.” The magic of Lionel is not in chuff rates, scale proportions or accurate prototypical everything. The magic of Lionel is in your own mind using your imagination: and in my mind that 8040 steamer
Long-long-short-long, with the last one held until the crossing is occupied.
Not to say they are bad. I just don’t know how else to put it but the worst Lionel B&O F3’s are the MPC single motored units from 1973. They run well enough but not as well as postwar or the later F3’s with magnetraction and twin motors. Unless MPC gives you the warm fuzzies, I would consider Williams before MPC.