Since I am in the process of designing my layout I have run across several items that have caused my to think about what I am doing. I want a nice layout that I can reasonably expect to finish in the next few years at a reasonable level of detail. I also want as long a mainline run as possible in the space I have (13’x16’). Because of that I am opting for a double deck layout to increase mainline length with heights at 40" and 58" respectively, with staging at about 35" , underneath the layout area. Design will be around the room. with a swinging door type entry and no duckunders.
As I plan for staging as well towns along the line, I want to ensure that I can operate by myself but also support a small crew (3-5) for about 2-3 hours. I will have a small yard at each end just so you know.
So, with that said, how long can I reasonably expect it to take to have a train travel at scale speeds over an approximate 200’ mainline with 3-4 online towns, with some local switching at each (3-6 sidings) plus a couple interchanges? And how many trains do you think would be sufficient?
You question really doesn’t have a good answer. Trains don’t always run from one end of the layout to the other. On one layout I operate on, one run out and back services to 3 mines in the same area and it takes about 15 minutes. Another run about the same distance, I spent 3 hours just going out. I had to leave so someone else had to switch the return trip.
John,To be honest that depends on how the trains are operated…If they are ran at mach 5 speed,switching is done in a in a like manner then it won’t take long to traverse that 200 feet.
However…Run trains at 35-40 scale mph and switch cars like the prototype allowing time for the brakeman to unlock and line switches,set/release hand brakes etc then it will take longer.
You may want to join the Yahoo OPSIG discussion group and ask the question. There are a lot of very knowledgeable railroaders who can go into more detail with you. I question your staging yard 5" below your 40" level. Unless the staging yard is below the 58" level, 5" is much too small. I would recommend 12" as a minimum. I speak from experience.
As far as the staging level goes I may not do it below the layout. I may be able to access the area under the basement stairs through the wall but I need to take a look at it to make sure it will work as I think it will. I would then have staging at both ends of the railroad at the same elevations as the 2 decks which would be wonderful.
Wonderful, and more than wonderful. There is no such thing as, “Too much staging.”
I forget which of the operating gurus said, “The amount of staging you need is enough to hold 2N + 1 trains, N being the number you originally planned to hold in staging.” Having operated layouts with inadequate staging, I think he was on to something.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with LOTS of staging)
I believe that would have been Tony Koester, but I could be wrong. unfortunately I have NEVER operated a layout so the best I can do is to make educated guesses.
If I go with under stairs staging I could get therotically get staging tracks that were about 16’ long, and I could get around 8-12 on each end without taking up all too valuable storage space from the wife. I had originally planned on having the helix in the room but may be able to circle my air handler unit and keep it hidden but accessible. Stagin would go through this small room to reach the stairwell.
Below is a layout of the basement as I have designed it. Railroad room is at the left of the plan and can not extend past the wall at the top left, although I may be able to get some more real estate along the 2 smaller closets behind the couch.
As soon as I get my benchwork limits set up I will post them.
IMO, designing a serious operation-oriented layout with no operation experience is just asking for it. Plan to design a layout that you’ll probably want to tear out once you learn what you really like.
Consider this: You can easily spend a couple thou on that bedroom layout and that could go down the flusher once you know what you really like later. Why not go operate on some operation-oriented layouts within driving distance of where you’re located, and based on that experience, then design your layout. Even if it costs you a few hundred dollars in hotel bills to visit those ops-oriented layouts, it will be money well spent to find out what you really like.
Do you like mainline running or industrial switching? Or perhaps you prefer working a yard? Maybe helper operations? How do you know what to emphasize and de-emphasize in your design without real knowledge?
I know one modeler, for example, who loves mainline running and doesn’t especially like yard switching, so his layout only has staging … no visible yards. Since he knows what he likes, he is able to design his layout with more mainline running since half the layout isn’t a visible yard (yards take lots of space).
Join the Yahoo Op SIG list and spend the next 6 months running trains. It will be the best thing you ever do to plan the most satisfying layout possible. [swg]
P.S. The other thing I would do if I were you is build a small switching layout, something say 2 x 6 or so. Complete it all the way to fully scenicked level. Get yourself a starter DCC system (Digitrax Zephyr or NCE Powercab are good choices since they are infinitely expandable later) and some equipment and experiment.
Without experience, designing and building a full room-sized layout is not advised, since you run a major risk of having regrets later. With experi
I have got to side with Joe on this one. Which should he pick, LDE’s of industries. Or maybe he should focus on yard LDEs. No wait, ports are the right LDE for him. Maybe he should concentrate on towns or signature scenes. No engine terminals. I got it passenger operations.
I think going to a few ops sessions might help him narrow his interests a bit.
That is one of the most highly unlearn replies I ever read on this or any other forum and one that is confusing to boot.I thought you would know better Chip…
Enlighten me. I meant no offense. I understood from Koester that LDE or Layout Design Elements were representations of the prototype and could be all or any of the above mentioned “scenes.”
If the layout planner had no knowledge of operations, how would he know which type of LDE would fit his interests?
Chip,A study of proto or freelance LDEs,reading various books that Kalmbach offers on the subject,joining Yahoo groups is the best route to take.Today we live in a highly informative hobby and we as modelers should put that to good use by study long before we buy the first piece of lumber.Being forearmed in knowledge is now at hand…The old way of building and rebuilding till you get it right went by the way of the dinosaurs with the introduction of the home computer age,updated books on layout design and prototypical operation.There is mega tons of good solid layout design advice on the net IF one wants to take the needed steps and join a yahoo layout design sig.Some of these groups has the well known layout designers as active members…Same applies for operation as well.
And Chip my old friend I know you are aware of this…I seen it in your posts.[:D]
Your approach sounds like Dominoes meet LDEs. You have to start out planning your layout to be small modular sections you can mix and match. Other than modular groups and Mr. Barrow, this is all nice theory, but I don’t see a ground swell of layouts showing up in the magazines that follow this new “enlightened” approach to building a layout.
I would argue that in theory this is all well and good, but it’s pretty advanced stuff that your newcomer modeler isn’t likely to know how to do. You can’t go across town and see a nice LDE/Domino layout and know how to do it.
Do you have a prototype in mind? The LDE approach seems to me like it would work better if they came from the same railroad. That way you can be assured they worked, and worked together. Pulling a random group of LDEs from different railroads doesn’t exactly sound like a recipe for success.
I’ve been in model railroading for 25 years, but have only recently become interested in operations. As soon as I did, the design shortcomings of my own railroad became painfully clear.
Here are some suggestions:
Visit the local club and get in on a few ops sessions. Get a feel for what works and what doesn’t.
Operate as you build. Make your switching areas broad areas of plywood, so that track arrangements can be changed without re-doing benchwork.
Scenic the mainlines first. Don’t touch the switching areas until you’re satisfied they work for you.
Be prepared even years down the road to rip out and re-arrange a little track to improve ops. Heck, the prototype does it too!
What I disagree with you on this one is that you can research without a direction. Newbees when they build a layout have a lot of romance about what they think will be fun on the layout. That’s why a lot of people build roundy-rounders–they just want to run trains.
Other people have a romance with the yard. They want a huge yard with turntable and round house. But they’ve never worked a yard before and after it is built, it becomes, foot for foot, the most expensive parking lot in the country. Turns out they think yard work is boring. The biggest, most expensive part of their layout is never used.
Finding an LDE is hardwork. Finding one that matches your operating preferences when you don’t know what they are is a crap shoot.
Chip,Over the years I have met newbies that didn’t know their left from their right hand switch…I have met many newbies that was well heeled in the hobby having been in other hobbies.I can recall 6 or 7 that knew more then some of our club members yet,none ever owned a train set.They STUDIED to see what the hobby could give them in return for their hobby dollar…True these guys are more the exception then the rule but,today’s newbie has better information at the click of the mouse or through many Kalmbach books then those 6 or 7 guys ever hope for back in the early 90s.
I will touch on this very lightly and with lots of reserve because I DO NOT AGREE with it but,feel it should be mention…One thing I have notice over the past 5-6 years on the local scene especially at the more “serious” clubs and the last 6 years I been on line is hobby ignorance is no longer accepted has it once was even for the new guy!
I think there is always a learning curve for ALL modelers regardless of modeling skills or years in the hobby because our hobby is a ever changing hobby but,the basics still apply in many situations.
Not picking on Joe but,with a very wide brush he made this statement:
while I may agree in principle we have NO real idea how popular this concept might be because we can’t pole every modeler in the U.S let alone Canada,England or any other county.It is my thoughts magazines are no longer the main stream information path it once was nor are the less then -if you will allow-“serious” forum.I found that the real meat and 'tatoe information lay in yahoo Sig groups where the well heeled advance models gather.However,these Sig’s isn’t for everybody
I agree with you here. A researching newbee can do some wonderful modeling. But that is not a substitute from running experience. You can guess that you like yard work, but without running the switcher you won’t know for sure.
Great discussion – I love a point and counter-point discussion, since it really helps one think through the topic.
Your point that there’s so much information online today that you don’t need actual “trial and error” experience is an interesting one. I would label the “trial and error” instead “hands on experience”, and what you’re describing one can now find online in the yahoo groups as “anecdotal” experience.
One of the things I am expected to do in my day job is train adults (software developers in my case). There are actually 4 distinct ways people learn, and the US population is split almost equally among the four ways:
Learning method 1 - Book learning: People with this bent learn the most from reading books and attending academic lectures. This teaching method focuses on theory. The traditional college course is structured for people with this bent, but it only fits about 25% of the population really well.
Learning method 2 - Active experimentation: People with this bent learn the most from hands on experience and being able to actually manipulate things and make mistakes. This is best embodied by “clinic” or “lab” time in formal training courses, and to a certain degree by apprenticeship programs.
Learning method 3 - Watching: People with this bent learn the most from watching others demonstrate the techniques. In college courses this can be seen when the instructor demonstrates the concept, and is also the heart of apprenticeship programs. Show and tell in grade school also uses this method of teaching.
Learning method 4 - Anecdotes: People with this bent learn the most from hearing others who have been there relay their experiences. Traditional college courses almost totally ignore this kind of learning, which means they are missing 25% of the population that “doesn’t fit the mold”. This kind
What a thread this has turned out to be[:)] I have read each reply and feel like I have listened to the options presented by all involved here. Yes, I do not have any run time to speak of and I would like to ge some. Unfortunately this area is not exactly a hotbed of MR activity as other parts of the country are, but there are some local modelers who are willing to accept others into their layouts. I am joining the local N scale club soon and hope through them to be able to operate on some layouts of they have to offer.
I do however read a LOT more than the average new guy. I am a member of the NMRA. I have been getting MR for 5-6 years now, have every annual they make, all of Tony’s book on design and operations, John Armstrongs planning book, several plan books, and a computer full of links to layouts and websites devoted to model railroads, including Spacemouse’s site and Joe’s site. I spend so much time panning over others designs that I feel like I know them and my wife thinks I am freaking crazy. I keep several issues of magazines in my Mini at all times just so I can read them again while sitting at stoplights. I am obsessed for sure.
What do I like best about the hobby? Everything. What do I like the least? Not being able to start building something because I am too busy asking questions on things that I think are important. I am taking my time, but this is not going to be my dream railroad since I plan on being in this home for about 5 years. But it is a start and one that I can bring to completion in that timeframe. I want to have something I can share with others but like some, I plan on operating it alone. If I can make it work for a crew of people that is fine; if not then so be it as long as what I have is enjoyable to me, looks realistic and operates well.
Do I like yards? Yes I do and there is no reason I can’t design this layout to have at
