The manufactors should build a 10 foot stretch of 4% grade, build a 20 car train and see if their engines can haul the stuff all the way up without slipping.
Then add weight, bigger motors etc as necessary until thier engines can actually get that 20 car train over the top or even start one mid grade. All before sending the final production order to the factory.
Then they can sell that loco with confidence that it is adequately powerful and worth the cost.
In the meantime I rely on several locomotives to carry the load.
I really did not expect 4-4-0’s, 4-6-0’s etc to carry 20 over 4% but if they can get 5-10 cars rolling on the level it would be great.
Part of the problem might be the old motor. They take a lot more juice. I have a newer F45 with 9 oz. added. I’ve found that to be the optimum added weight for the stock Athearn motor. More than that, it just doesn’t run right. Haven’t fried any athearn motors yet. If I do, oh well, they are cheap. Just make sure the wheels still spin if there is too much on the drawbar.
For weighing, weigh the shell, then the mechanism, then add it up. I managed to find a digital food scale that weighs up to 5 lbs, I think, in 1/8 oz increments – accurate enough for my needs.
I agree. Todays S.S. power paks don’t put out enough wattage (VA) to run old multiple BB lashups, since they pulled up to 2 amps each - .5 amps at best - depending on the motor.
Barra-Cuda Ken: The fact that you’re running 20 - 50 MPH anywhere near* FULL THROTTLE tells me your power pack lacks ‘Oomph’ - Watts - VU’s. DC *powerpacks lack ‘tapered’ speed controls, and you’ll need around 2.5 amps to run those old BB’s. That translates to 30 VA today. ALL power paks drop voltage as amps get near their capacity. 'Betcha you don’t don’t have the HP.
SAVE up your sheckels and you might get a good power pak while they still make them - or you can find one used. Look for an MRC AG 9500 @30VA.
Yes, I know about the new motors, and even have a few Athearns with the gold motors.[:D] I mentioned the Jet 400 motors because cudaken said his engines have the old round motors.
Mopar! I love Mopar, let see I have a N 02 with a 150 HP plate and 20 pound bottle, or I could strap the 6-71 Blower to the MRC 2500.
Well for he folks think I need wheels spining, I pulled out 1 oz and the wheels spin singel headed and a little doubled heaed.
Then I threw on a PK Erie Bulit single headed and it stall and somke the wheels at the Apx of the track. Would cook at the lower part on the track say 100 sMPH.
Next I threw in the B unit and it would pull the train, but at 50% power would stall and spin the weels at the Apx, or should I say high spot of the track. At 55% it makes the rounds on the B line. Threw on 2 Super Weight A&B’s F-7’s and with a light load and at 80% thottle they are moving very well, Super weight’s with lite load say 80 sMPH and PK’s Erie Bulit a round 70 sMPH.
As far as the Rocket motor, Hum that is a Olds term and not a W-30 442. Not sure what it is but here is a PIC of the SPD that was weighted and lead engine.
Don, as far as needing 30 VA, I think I will be OK. With running the 2500 16 VA on line A and 20 VA with the 280 I should be OK for now. Triple headed then quaded headed ws just to see what would happen.
Oh, one thing I all most forgot to say. With only doubled headed BB’s they pulled well and a lot faster than triple headed BB’s.
Sounds like your pack’s “breaking down under load”. Simply put, VA=Watts. Use 2.5 amps at 12 volts = 30 Watts. Run the throttle up to about 90%, if you’re still using the 2.5 amps, but with only 20 watts available on the 280, you’ll only get about 8 volts. Either that or you’ll get the 12 volts, but only about 1.6 amps.
Prototype railroaders have similar problems, their equipment runs on 600 volts and up to 1000 amps +/- briefly.
For a Really good power supply, just go on a get an MRC Control Master 20. With 75 VA of power (in HO scale mode), that should handle almost anything. I think I paid like $100 +/- for mine like 10 years ago. These also handle G scale, with 85 VA of power in large scale mode. It has walkaround and memory, should you like to have these features.
No, mine’s NOT for sale.
As a rule of thumb, I try to get my engines fairly close to scale weight, a 200 ton SD40-2 should weigh about 9.75 ounces. Even though my Proto 2000 E-8’s weigh nearly 16 oz., I’m not changing those.
While there may not be an NMRA standard for locomotives, I plan on using the NMRA weight standard for the unpowered Athearn F7B in my consist. Why should the A&B units have to lug its big butt around? This will involve grinding weight out of it with my Dremel.
Better yet, the MRC Control Master 20 is rated at 100 VA when operated at its’ full voltage, but will still have plently of omph when operating at the lower voltage.
We been using the CM-20s at the club since the early 90s…I fully agree they have lots of omph at low voltage.
Don,I doubt if the DC power packs will be going away any time soon…Theres still tens of thousands DC users around.My old Tech IIs can handle 5 old BB units…
If you have a decent digital Ohm meter the stall current is easy to get. Just measure the resistance across the motor. Then divide that value into your maximum voltage and you have the stall current.
In a world of variables - car weights - rolling friction - various radii and intangibles - there are several certainties when our running our trains:
Engine Traction must offset what is to be pulled (Drag). ‘Number of cars’ is replaced by amount of weight to be pulled (Drag). Friction and incline increase ‘drag’. To have an AMMETER is to be informed.
(a)Adding weight will add traction but can burn out the motor. (b) Use an Ammeter.
Power supply output is finite, and limited by the Transformer. Oversimplification: Today, a 18VA supply will put out 1.5 amps @ 12 volts or 7.2 volts @ 2.5 amps (both total 15VA). A 12 VA supply puts out 1 amp at 12 volts and less than 5v @ 2.5 a. Wonder why speed drops as you add engines? Don’t, plus HD transformers are expensive. Chances are your power pak is somewhere between these numbers.
Voltage provides Intensity). An electric motor runns faster on 24v than 12. Amps are what do the work.
“My old Tech IIs can handle 5 old BB units.” - and my old Volkswagen ‘Beetle’ could go 90 MPH (downhill).
Power supply is not finite, or constant. It will only put out as many amps as required at any given voltage, up to the rated maximum.
I don’t know about 5 old BB units, because I only ever owned four powered ones, but I know I have owned 3 Tech II 2400s (before one started to die) that would handle the four BBs and a couple of other engines.
The fastest I ever saw one of those old VWs go was 70. The one I was in only went about 30 down that hill, but it wasn’t rolling on it’s wheels. Still made it to school with no windows and only one door that would open.
Sort of kidding about that power supply, but if it would work? I all most bought one for my slot car track and would have if I had not went the way of the rail. They have a 10 amp for around $120.00.
Maybe the MRC 2500 is heading south. What is the life of a thottle? I run the train every day from a short day 2 hours and long day 6 to 8 hours.
One thing I should throw in and maybe the under laying problem. I have very few power taps (feeders) at this point plus only a few turns are solder. Main line B that is around 100 feet only has 7 and A only 4.
As far as a old bug VW. Hum that was my first car. Dad did not want me to grow up a gear head like him. You be amazed what can be done to them.
1963 VW 40 HP Threw in a 67 block, EMPI stroker crank with needle bearin mains, 92 MM barrels and pistons, 67 302 Z-28 rods, 73 Duale port heads, sodium filled 39MM and 40 MM vales, dual 40 Webbers carbs, Bosh Mag, TRW cam (cannot rember specks) Fits racing clutch, Weber lighten Flywheel, close ratio 3rd and 4th gears and Hurst shifter.
My claim to fame was the day I beat the rival towns Quater Back in a drag races. He had a 67 GTO Tri Power 4- Speed with 4.10 like gears. He lite the hides while laughing at me, before he got moving I had him by 4 cars and pulling like heck shifting at 6500 RPM. Was a soild 13.4 car. In fact how Dad let me have the 68 Road Runner I still have, so I would not kill my self.
That power supply ought to do it ! I do not think it’s a number of feeders problem. I had my last layout down to one feeder on an 80’ loop before I broke down and completely dismantled it and it still worked all right. Not recommending that just stating a fact.
That QB obviously didn’t know how to drive. My '66 Goat ate RRs, admitedly non-hemi ones, for breakfast. 107MPH in 13.12 at Richmond. With a 3.55 rear and the wide-ratio 4 speed.
A friend got a '65 (I think I remember right - it has been 40 years) Belvedere w/ the Hemi, and he was a bit disappointed in it stock, but man when we got through with it, it was awe inspiring.
Don,I realy don’t care if you believe that or not…Know one thing.I have no reason to come on this or any other forum and lie.My Tech II can and will handle 5 BB units…
I have a Digitrax Power Supply that is adequate amperage no worries there. I can feed several boosters. One is 8 Amp and the other two planned will be 5 amps each.
Regarding the GTO driver, I think he does not know how to drive. He sat burning rubber too long on the line. I dont do hard launches but am a top end driver. I did once beat a stock Ford Mustand GT (1990 model) with a 93’ Freightliner COE Tractor with the 470 detroit on a rockwell 9 without a trailer off the stoplight on a certain divided highway on the east coast. I had him off the line, held him off until I hit high end and got im until 110 or so.
I did incur damage on the power train taking off on torque in high range but it was worth the shop foreman’s verbal abuse in his office. =)
Barkie, I think my main problem is the BB’s are old and worn out. New style motor helped, before with the old ones it would just down with 1. Plus for what ever the reason the 12 wheelers just seem slower. I know the 2500 I have now would run 5 Super weights if I had that many.
On the 13.2 with 3.55’s. Hum I smell some super tuning in thoses numbers. Main reason I BBQ the Goat (smells nasty while cooking them but taste OK)[}:)] was the QB was to busy laughing at me and the VW which was painted Plum Cray. It was a county road Drag Races where you run what you brung. He was beating every thing that was trying, Z’s, Mach 1’s SS and what ever. So I gave it a try, car was new to the street seen and no one knew what it could do. All he saw was a funny looking little car that idle funny. He knew how to drive, just not think he needed to. Well as we booth know if you have a qucker 60 foot time good chances you will will. With a Bug with all the weight over the drive wheels thay are tuff to beat anyway, throw in a burn out and you have smoked Goat.
Any other seconds on the power supply I listed? All so what about a MRC 6200 at 35 VA.
45 cars now and it still keeps going and going and going.
Ken,This may not be a acceptable answer but,my thoughts would be to repower those units with the newer Athearn motor.On the other hand buying a MRC CM20 could be a better answer as well and cost less then repowering.
About that 6200…I had to look up the details…Yes that would work and be less then the CM20.Both the CM20 and 6200 has a mode switch for HO and N so you are good to go since the 6200 like the CM20 can be used for all scales except for Lionel and other like brands that uses AC power.
One issue that hasn’t been raised is lubrication. If the locos still have a nice flywheel effect and coast well, then they’re probably not dry. But dry motor, worm, or axle bearings or gearing will increase friction & current draw. I use Archer (Radio Shack) Teflon Lube Gel on the gearing. I swear by the stuff. I think it’s Super Lube in a thickened form. Labelle sells a teflon grease as well, but at RS you get a large 3 0z. tube for about 3 bucks. If I buy an old Rivarossi steamer, for example, I strip out all of the old grease and replace it with this stuff and teflon oil. The old Berkshires and articulateds had a high pitch set of worms, so when I’m done I can disconnect the motor shaft and have the wheels drive the gearing. It’s that slick.
Another issue is too much lubrication, or oil in the motor brushes. It turns to tar on the commutator. In your photo the commutator looks nice & polished, so I doubt it’s an issue, but when it is I just drop the brushes in Gumout or a similar solvent for a while, then let them dry. Pulls the oil right out of them.
