Bob - apparently you have not read my thread carefully. I said I don´t like bare layouts aka Plywood Central RR, I prefer to have some sort of scenery on it.
I agree with Bob H.
It took me five years of weekly operating sessions to up grade one industry from a cardboard box to a better looking structure. When I did upgrade two passenger trains went past before the change was noted.
I also found that having friends in was a great way to find spots that needed another spur to make operations better. I’d hate to do too much detailling and then feel the urge to rip it out.
The guys also liked to spot what, if anything I had done between sessions.
Enjoy, have fun.
Dave
I’m looking to retire soon, and with that will likely come a move out of our high-tax location. There will also be reduced income and increased available time. Right now I’ve got a good-sized home layout, about a hundred square feet.
I’m not moving anywhere unless I get a good-sized train room, perhaps even bigger than the 24x24 room I’ve got now, although that’s shared with the TV Pit. My thinking about the future is to disassemble my layout and put it back together, either as is or reconfigured a bit based on a larger space. My layout now is mostly urban, with a lot of track. What I would like to add is open space, perhaps a narrow shelf that runs a long way and ends up in staging. That sort of thing is easy to scenic, and can be added to as time permits, giving a lot of added potential without a lot of time to get it up and running.
Unfortunately too many on here seem to think otherwise as this a reoccuring theme talking about Scenery more than actually running trains!
The only reason I built the layout was to host OPERATIONS!
I started early - only about 3 months after a little benchwork was in.
While it wasn’t a plywood central (more like painted Homasote Central) the trains still ran well and there was little sense in putting in a lot of Scenery as the Layout was under major construction and would be for the next 3 years (I started back in 2001 building the layout).
And the notion that once the track is down there would be NO CHANGES is a little foolish thinking!
I was making changes all of the time to the operating parts as the crew (which I had to Learn them OPERATIONS from get go) were suggesting changes to the siding lenghts or add a Crossover here or there to make OPERATIONS! go a bit smoother or faster!
I would consider these changes and usually impliment them into the Layout!
It would be kind of wasteful if I was constantly tearing up Scenery to make these changes - Would it not?
So this has gone on for 12 years now and I have been doing Scenery right along to areas that I knew that were not planned on having major chenges to!
The Layout is probably 30% to 40% covered with base scenery and as time goes on I will update sections I have already done to make them look new or try out a new technique!
The Scenery will never be done as I will continually upgrade it as new materials become av
In some cases yes and I found those that do change their track found what looked good on paper was not a great idea but,a operating nightmare…
On my few loop layouts and all of my ISL I planed as I go by laying the track in place and soon realized it was good idea or forget that idea it ain’t going ta work old son!
Think of the wasted time doing rework if I rushed into track laying with a paper plan in hand.
Hi,
I think we all would wish to have your situation. But I do believe I understand your dilemna.
IMO, few modelers start out with (and successfully complete) a super large layout. It is just too easy to bite off more than you can chew - and end up disgruntled.
Those of us who are lone wolf modelers know all too well that the bigger the layout, the more potential for problems and the more time/effort need for maintenance.
Twer I were you, I would study the layout plan books, and find something that you can relate to, and also one that is of moderate size and has expansion possibilities. You can “get your feet wet” building this, and it will lead you to a future expansion (or not).
Oh, one thing I would do first… prep the room BEFORE starting that layout. You will likely regret it if you don’t, but I doubt you will if you do.
One of my longer ISLs was located in a old fashion sewing room and went across a window and several modeling buddies asked why I didn’t block the window instead of using a curtain…
Simple.
I prefer natural light over artificial light.
One should think twice and choose what pleases them.
Larry & Others
I had the luxury of helping to build over 20 layouts throughout my Modeling Career before I ever started on my current 2500 sq ft one!
Having been in a Club for over 25 years and having 3 scales helped to learn building benchwork quickly, inexpensively yet strong !
We had to move 3 times and we also rebuilt several of the layouts a couple of times!
So the building of a Large layout was of little concern as it was just a whole bunch of small layouts joined together by sections of track!
I have to agree that quite a number of first time Modelers want the super large layout their first time out.
Joining a Club is a quick way to get to experience the conditions of working on and maintaining a large layout.
With my current Layout being based on the Conrail Lowgrade Line in Western PA – the trackwork was designed as close to what the real track was in 1984 as I had the CR ZTS (Zone Track Spot) maps for my area.
While I thought that I did a great job of replicating the real thing in miniature – the amount of traffic we tried to run on this Layout in comparison to the real thing made for too many trains & Operators standing around waiting on the Yards to open up tracks!
I figured that in a single 3 hour evening session – we moved more trains then than the Real Lowgrade Line ran in a Year!
So – How was I going to be able to speed up the Yard Masters?
Suggestions from those that ran the Yards were solicited and changes became the norm!
I did NOT Build the layout to look at and only run a few trains – I normally have 20 Operators and changes to the Trackwork were made so that the Train throughput would accommodate this n
Nor am I…I build a layout-even a 10’ ISL so I can get a return on my investment in the form of “play value”.No need to invest thousands of dollars in cars and locomotives if one doesn’t plan to use them.Nor to I seen any value in investing thousands of dollars in building a layout just to look at it or worst rip it out just for something to do or to try the latest idea mention in MR or RMC.
Unfortunately – most Modelers seem to be of the Single (Lone Wolf) type of Layout Owner and this means a small layout would be more to their abilities to Build and Maintain!
Absolutely! I couldn’t agree more.
But…
How can this come about when modelers is bombarded with “bigger is better?” and the monthly basement filling Godzilla size layout featured in magazines?
Even on this forum I’ve seen 4x8’ layouts blasted…
Why?
Doesn’t a 4x8 footer beat no layout or that “dream” layout that might,just might come to pass some year or several decades?
So I guess this is why I seem to be so enthused about Operations and feel everyone should take a crack at formal Operations!
Even operation in its simplest form is fun.
How simple?
I was blessed with a 30x50 basement of which I could devote about 75% to my hobby. That seemed a bit much bit I got lucky when two model railroaders in my hick town offered to help. It was decided that I could have sort of a benevolent dictatorship. I got the “bull work” (carpentry) out of the way and now most of the track is laid and the wiring done.
Enter fate. The young guy moved across the country because of his job and the older guy got sick and died. Most of the other modelers I have met are pretty busy with their own layouts and so now I am running trainis around a plywood desert with 2 1/2 scale miles of mainline, 1` 1/2 miles of secondary line and 6 small indutrial and interchange yards in addition to the main yard that holds about 300 cars.
I would have never gone this big if I had known what the future held. Problem is I have too much fun operating what I have and building more equipment to get much done on the layout. Guess that is not really a big problem.
At least I am getting some of the track painted and a few structures built. I think I will just take an area at a time and finish it before going on to another.
Charlie
Bob, I am always interested in reading what you have to say, but I found this reply to be particularly interesting.
The notion of single wolf operators inviting your group to conduct an Ops session on their layout. Fascinating!
Rich
Rich,That does not surprise me…If the layout is large enough even the lone wolf will find a pack to operate with so,he can enjoy a full return on his investment.
Larry, I agree with you.
But my comment was directed at the generosity of Bob’s group to visit local layouts and show lone wolf operators how to improve their layouts and conduct effective Ops sessions.
I need them to come visit mine. And, I even live close to I-80.
Rich
Most round robins I know of does that…Of course the return investment is gaining another layout to operate on.
I knew one group had 19 members and 19 different layouts to operate on…Last I heard there was 7 left.Most of the members either moved away,passed on or in poor health.
Rich!
I have had a lot of visitors to my layout over the years and while the huge Layout seems to impress everyone I am usually asking the Visitor if they have a layout of their own!
One (which is now one of our regulars) stated he had a small bedroom N Scale Layout and stated that he had not done much Operations with it.
I ask if we could come up and see it and we did - soon the Operations were going on!
While we could only cram 3 guys in the room at one time - we took turns and everyone had a great time!
He has added on to the layout and we can now keep 5 guys busy and this is in a 10 x 10 Bedroom!
Another visitor also ask us about having an OPs Session but his was in the Philadelphia area. So 6 of us made a overnight trip (as we had a larger layout to run on on Saturday)!
Sunday we ran on the smaller layout and the owner kept stating that it wasn’t as big as mine but I kept telling him that size isn’t everything!
The layout had double helixs and 3 level base - What impressed me was the way the Helixs could be run into and out of them to gain access to all 3 levels!
It was only an 18 x 18 but it kept 8 of us busy for 4 hours - only 3 could be running at one time but as each train finished its run another Operator took the next train out!
What is interesting is the small layouts seem to be more creative in the way the Owner sets up the OPs (Switching) and this, to me, is much more interesting than just taking a long train and run around the layout!
This is why I have so much Switching on my current layout !
It is the mental challenge of moving the cars into the proper Industries tha
The southwest suburbs of Chicago.
Rich
Bob, when you and your crew head over to a local layout for the first time, what is your experience with the track work?
Is it designed efficiently to handle Ops in all cases?
Is it bullet proof? In terms of no derailments, unintended uncouplings, etc.
Rich
Rich
Believe it or not - we are in the planning stages for a trip to Grand Rapids MI !
I will keep you in mind!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Rich
Usually we have one or two of our I-80 Group members check out the layout by getting ask to one of their regular OPs Sessions (if they are holding regular sessions) or to just see the layout if the Owner is contemplating hosting a session!
While most of the layouts we visit, the layout is generally are very good but Operations can vary wildly!
SO I really can’t say that they are designed for efficient OPs. We just run the layout and will make suggestions as most of the Owners are open to suggestions when it come to OPs.
Even our local member layouts are in a continual build or rebuild as they try to make changes to smooth out the Operations eliminate derailments, etc!
One thing about doing OPs is, the Layout Owner (if really interested in Hosting a Great OPs Session) will be always changing the layout to make the OPs Session run better!
We have run on layouts that could only run 3 Operators at one time to those that can take 12 or more. I have had 30 on my layout a couple of times but soon found the 20 was the magic number!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I just mentioned this in another thread. You have just described my situation exactly. I have about 8927 square feet, of which about 5400 is for the layout. I have had this for over 6 years now. I am very good at desiging small layouts and fitting them into strange shapes. Now that I have neither of those constraints I am totally lost. I am no closer to having a track plan now than I was the day I bought it.
Then I also started working at the muesum layout and realized that even if I could get something like this built, it would be a full time job to maintain it and I would never find enough people to run it on a regular basis.
So I think it is too much space for a single person. My plan is now to build a separate building about 1/2 this size designed specifically for the layout.