how much to build handlaid turnouts?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
21

To all,

Fast Tracks makes great products for those of you who need or want them - no question about that.

As for NMRA compliance, what does that really mean in the case of Fast Tracks - the quality and accuracy of the finished product still lies in the craftsmanship of the builder.

That is craftsmanship I mastered three decades ago without their products.

My personal modeling goals do not include needing to create over 100 turnouts from scratch except for a few special conditions.

I am a NMRA member, I am even on the upcomming NMRA Data Sheets Peer Review Committee, but certificate or not, Atlas code 83 turnouts work very well, are very afordable and meet NMRA standards in every operational dimension that I have measured.

I have seen #4 Atlas turnouts with a slight wave, I have seen Atlas turnouts of both #4 and #6 with slightly raised frogs, all easly fixed during installation.

Like Larry, I think all this Atlas bashing is just like like Bachmann bashing. It is just snob appeal pandering and does nothing positive to promote the hobby.

I don’t know or care why Atlas turnouts do not have an NMRA certificate, but no one here has yet to specificly explain where/how/why they fail.

If we all only built our layouts with NMRA certified products we would be scratch building almost everything or not modeling much.

Sheldon

22

Atlas does not make a #5, but that assumes you need or want #5 turnouts. ACTUALLY, the Atlas #4 turnout - code 100 or code 83 - is really a #4-1/2. Does Fast Tracks make a #4-1/2?

Without their fancy tools, ties, jigs, whatever, I can make any frog angle I want or need.

Start building a large layout and want/need lots of different sized turnouts in different sized rail and then tell me about the cost of Fast Tracks.

Too rich for my blood. I only use Atlas #4’s in industrial areas, everything else is #6’s and above.

Again, Fast Tracks is very nice for those who want it - I can do all that without their products.

But at $13 for an Atlas code 83 turnout - why bother except for “specials” - which I can’t build from Fast Tracks jigs anyway.

Stil want know what is out of spec on an Atlas turnout?

I also recently measured an “expensive” Walthers turnout - the Atlas product was within NMRA spec - the Walthers at considerably more money was not.

Sheldon

23

Actually, none of the jigs are necessary. But they are available and a complete set is as described. Pick and choose as you will.

The Stock Aid as I noted is not turnout size specific so not including it in the turnout kit makes sense. But still, it is a jig that’s available.

Atlas Code 100 turnouts are available from MB Klein for $11.99

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/HO-Scale-Code-100-s/1464.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=1464&show=30&page=1&brand=Atlas

Atlas #4’s are actually #4.5 which are now available from Fast Track. The #5 was an example size to make clear that the assembly jig and point form jig are turnout size specific. HO Turnout assemble fixtures for 4 thru 9 have the same price. Same for the point forms 4 thru 9 for code 100 rai

24

Wow, so they do now have #4.5 turnout jigs at Fast Tracks. Glad to see business is good, but I’m still not buying a $100 fixture for each size turnout I want to use.

Sheldon

25

2 pages of argumentation on jigs and costs! Not one mention of CVT switch kits? They are about $10 for the kits and no rail is supplied. I have built 12 of them so far. I started making my own frogs on home made jigs and throw bars from wood ties and brass wire for pivot pins. They work great and look a whole lot better than any commercial turnout. All mine are code 70 and one is code 83. There is no filing of the stock rail using the CVT points.

http://www.cvmw.com/turnouts.htm

Proto 87 has $10 turnout kits using the CVT ties and P87 parts.

http://www.proto87.com/lowest-cost-fast-track-HO-turnouts.html

Pete

26

In answer to the OP, I did a cost comparison about a year ago for a clinic on hand laying HO scale turnouts. The cost for materials for a #6 was about $5.25. That is compared to $20+ for commercial turnouts.

Like some others, I hand lay in place with no jigs or fixtures. The tools required are likely ones you already have.

Tony Koester did an excellent article many years ago in MR on hand laying turnouts. There was also an article one of the recent issues for N-scale turnouts, but the technique is similar for any scale.

Dan Fisher

Modeling the N&W Walker Creek Branch

27

Dan, respectfully I will repeat what I and others have said - Atlas turnouts, code 100 or code 83, can generally be bought for about $13 each. That is considerably less than $20+, especially if one is building a large layout.

And that is also were it becomes a time vs money issue - if you have, or choose to spend the time, great.

But suggesting that all commercial turnouts are $20 or more is simply not true.

Sheldon

28

I built several of those as a test - no thank you. By the time you modifiy them to solve the problems of the fragile points, throw bar and frog, you may as well just built one from scratch on wood ties.

And dispite the claims, they do not curve readily because curving a turnout changes the relationship of points to frog, requiring it to be longer.

And once again, just like fast tracks you are locked in to preset sizes, if your going to build them, why be locked in? Just learn to do it any of othe old ways make them to fit each location.

Again, locked into preset sizes I will just stay with Atlas code 83 at $13 each ready to go. And they fit together nicely with no cutting for yard ladders and crossovers with 2" track centers. Another reason I prefer them over those “more expensive” brands.

Sheldon

29

Being a bit naive, inexperienced, and needy (cough), I purchased the Fast Tracks #8 materials (jigs and ties, plus rail stock) in early 2006. While finishing our basement (She decided it had to be done), I learned how to build DCC-friendly #8’s per the Fast Tracks method. Long story short, and with what psychologists call “hindsight bias”, I now know enough to make whichever turnout my layout needs.

We each need to make our path. Some of us have a form of intelligence that facilitates skipping steps and saving ourselves some money. I had watched the videos on Tim Warris’ site (Fast Tracks), but didn’t make the connection to being able to make just about any turnout until after I had ordered all the items and actually built a few. Later, I built turnouts that were not possible using Tim’s templates and materials. But, that should be to his credit! By learning how turnouts work, and how to make them, I now know how to make just about anything I need.

I think this is the important message for those reading. While the various purveyors of goods and instruments/jigs offer ways to make what we need, even the most dull among us will eventually realize that the process for making a useful and custom turnout is about the same as it is for what they offer. Eventually, at higher level of understanding, we learn that an eclectic approach yields even better results. Taking a little bit from every method, as Joe Fugate has done, and Sheldon, we find that we can satisfy our needs with a 'little bit 'o this and a little bit 'o that."

Crandell

30

I built a few turnouts from “Proto 87” parts over the last year. They use the CV tie strip bases, but better frogs and other details. They worked pretty nice for me not ever doing it before. The CV turnout tie strips make lining up the rails a bit easier…no PCB ties needed except for the point rail attachment. You can also just buy their frogs, and make the rest yourself. They sell some really nice parts…and if you are into super detailing your turnouts, their details are quite fine and accurate!

Price wise, they run about $10 a turnout if you use the CV tie strips…but the quality of the finished product over the clunky Atlas switches is a no brainer for me.

31

i actually expected hand built turnouts to be much more expensive than what you guys are quoting … my thought process wasnt to “save money” but to just build turn outs just to try it and get good at it …

thank you for all the great links, discussion and the tutorial…

i now have even more to think about… lol

32

Atlas turnouts have flangeways that are consistently too wide and deep per the NMRA specs. Atlas code 100 turnouts are consistently wide in gauge through the points (at least all the ones I put in my staging yard were to start). That having been said, other commercial turnouts aren’t necessarily better. Shinohara code 70s are mostly wide in gauge through the frogs, and the code 83s (sold through Walthers) are very wide at the ends of all routes, plus the curved turnouts are overly wide at the points.

I use plenty of Atlas 83, and don’t encounter operating problems with them provided they’re tuned up to eliminate misaligned frog castings. There are a few extra tweaks that allow them to work very smoothly.

I’ve handlaid many a turnout, and approciate seeing how equipment can roll through precisely made frogs and points, in addition to the cost savings. I never used a jig, so wasn’t concerned about amortizing jig costs. In terms of overall reliability, handlaid turnouts really aren’t an improvement over a properly tuned Atlas 83 or Micro Engineering turnout from my experience. Neither has the fine appearance or a turnout build from a Central Valley or P:87 Stores kit.

33

Hi guys,

Sheldon,

I haven’t seen any one bash Atlas as you’ve noted in this discussion. The only comments concerning Atlas turnouts were their inclusion with all other manufactured turnouts as being non-NMRA certified, and even yourself noted you’ve seen a slight wave and with a raised frog on the Atlas turnouts. Those are simple factual statements, and if you consider those bashing, than I’m afraid your political correctness is a lot toucher than mine.

Per the NMRA certification, please note that I clearly stated that that may, or may not be an issue for individuals. I know you’ve got a big basement, a large layout, NMRA membership, a committee seat, and decades of experience, so I know I don’t have to explain that to you.

Paul,

My initial response was due to you saying that it would take 45 turnouts to break even with a Fast Tracks jig set. I still say you are incorrect in that assessment.

Looking at MB Klein, if we use the Atlas No. 4 code 100 as a sample (no bashing intended, nor were any Atlas No. 4s harmed during this comparison) the cost of the turnout is $11.99 as you noted (very good price).

In order to compare, I looked at the parts components. Note that I’m not comparing paint costs, as people may or may not want to paint their track, whether that be manufactured or hand laid.

Parts include rail, PC turnout ties, wood turnout ties, wood cross ties, and spikes.

From MB Klein -
ME code 100 rail, 36” long, 33 pc - $51.49 or $1.56 each. 24” needed per turnout for a cost of $1.03

From Fast Tracks
PC board ties - turnout, $12.35 per 100 or $.12 each - 9 needed per turnout for a cost of $1.08
Wood turnout ties, $20.05 per 500 or $.04 each - 20 needed per turnout for a cost of $.80
wood cross ties, $17.13 per 1000 or $.02 each - 9 needed per turnout for a cost of $.18
spikes, $9.67 per 10

34

Scarpia,

You keep leaving out stuff and then saying my estimate is too high. Leaving out one of the jigs and the cost of the soldering tools will of course lower the break even point.

You don’t make it clear but your materials figures appear to be based on the minimum length for the Fast Track jig as opposed to the default length. For example the kit provides 3 18" lengths of rail per turnout.

So I think my estimate is probably more accurate.

BTW I think the turnout kit is a poor way to go - the 5 quick sticks drive up the cost too much IMHO.

Paul

35

Paul,

I don’t think it’s fair to include the soldering tools (or any of the tools) as they are things that are in my mind part of a standard kit. A soldering iron, file, rail clippers, razor saw, and an NMRA gauge are things that all hobbyists should have if they don’t; and I can’t decide on a meaningful way to gauge how to build their cost in for what is partial use at best.

Concerning the missing jig (the stock aid), as I’ve mentioned before it’s not necessary, and not included in the kit. Is it a jig? Yes. Is it a time saver? Yes. Those factors don’t make it any more necessary than the Tiebreaker PC Board cutting tool, or the frog helper jig, both of which are also nice to have but not necessary. I’m curious as to what is it about the stock aid that makes you think it should be included? In last month’s MR, Lance shows how to make your own stock aid jig from a piece of wood with a saw, so folks always have that option.

Per the rail length, my rail usage maybe under what Fast Tracks specifies for their kit, but I haven’t had any problems (I do run mine longer if it works out better to eliminate a joint, but I’ve averaged 24" of rail for a number 5 HO scale turnout). Mine end up pretty darn close in size to the overall dimensions of a manufactured turnout, actually, so maybe they are a better match?

I would agree with you that the kit may not be the best starter set; I’d recommend instead a crossover jig with the appropriate point form tool. While it costs a bit more, the crossover jig allows you to make double and single crossovers, as well as a standard turnout. If you’re HO order it in code 83, and as I mentioned you can do all of those in either code 83 or 70, making it pretty versatile. With the price of a Walthers code 83 double crossover running around $70 (Cherry Creek Hobbies), the payback is pretty fast if you need or want even just one. And while it took a lot of time to make, even with the jig, it was still a rewarding process.

36

Flangeways too deep? Re-read S-3.2, there is no standard for maximum flangeway depth, only minimum depth - 0.025"

The idea of flanges riding on the bottom of flangeways is a faulty idea not supported by NMRA Standards.

I don’t have any code 100 turnouts to measur

37

Well you got me there, as when I’m scratchbuilding I build flangeways at the frog to minimum depth only. I like how turnouts look and perform thus constructed, so got used to thinking of that standard as correct depth.

That arrangement comes very close to matching prototype practice on tie length for a standard turnout (compressed though it may be for say a #6 which is sharp for the prototype). The tie arrangement on Atlas Custom Line turnouts makes it easy to build crossovers but the result isn’t usually as realistic as with a modified Shinohara/ME/CVT product, and especially noticeable when not installed as part of a crossover. I prefer the Atlas Super Track 83 (the ones with ties like the Shinohara and ME turnouts) for this reason, even if that means cutting them down to build a crossover or ladder. I also add all those extra full-length ties when handlaying.

And while on the subject of ties, unless you handlay or use the CVT/P:87 kits, you don’t get the close tie spacing under the frog that a typical prototype turnout has. The NMRA considered including this spacing in revised standards currently under development, but I haven’t heard whether it will be officially adopted or not.

38

Sheldon, this is a bit aside of the discussion, but you mentioned a curved frog on Code 83 Peco turnouts? I haven’t seen such a thing. I use the Streamline DCC-friendly #6 extensively in my yard.

One part of the Peco Steamline #6 turnouts that I don’t really care for is that their points rails are really blades, and not tapered rail. Other than that quibble, I like them…a lot! [:P]

Crandell

39

Crandell,

Maybe I was not clear. The PECO code 83 turnouts do not have a curved frog.

On the prototype, no mater the “number” of the turnout (trolley trackage excluded), the pathway thorugh the frog is straight, all the diverging curve happens before the frog.

On “train set” type model trackage, the curved portion of the turnout is equal to a curved section of track - i.e. an Atlas “snap switch” is equal to an 18" radius. This requires that the diverging route curve through the frog.

It has long been common UK and European model practice to also build more gentle, larger radius or # turnouts with a curved frog.

The PECO code 100 and code 75 tunouts are this way - continuosly curved through the frog - contrary to North American prototype practice.

It was those code 100 and code 75 products I was refering to.

This is why turnout sizes are not given as a radius, because there is no constant radius through most better/longer/more gentle turnouts. The “number” is an expression of the frog angle - #6 equals six units of travel to one unit of change in direction - which equals about 9 degrees.

What happens after the frog is of no concern. It can resume turning away from the straight route or it can go straight or it can turn back to parallel the other track, but the route throught the frog should be straight.

This ties in directly with another principal of railro

40

Rob, I get the thing about the ties and I knew that, but, there comes a point in all this were if you require that level of accuracy and detail - tot