Any statistics on frequency of derailments? Are there derailments that the crews can fix or do they have to call for help? Can trains continue to run with partially derailed car? How do crews find out they have a derail? How about uncoupling? Does that happen on the prototype? Any provision for automatic braking on an uncoupled car rolling away (is it steep enough to do that?) Any websites on trainwrecks?
Maybe you should ask these questions over on the Train Magazine forum where they discuss the prototype, instead of here where modelers hang out.
Depends on where they are working and how good the track is. If a crew is working on a mainline run then they might derail once every couple years or less. If a crew is working on a ratty industrial track that hasn’t been maintained in 20 years, then they might derail once or twice a week. All the class one railroads in the country combined might have one or two main line derailments each day. Sometimes one railroad might have 6 major derailments going, sometimes none for a week.
Now that sounds like a lot, but compare that to how many miles and how many trains are out there across the nation and its not as bad as it may seem. Compare it to how many traffic accident there are out on the major highways.
Dave H.
I don’t know, but it seems that almost every time I hear about CSX it’s because of a derailment or some cars rolled away.
The AAR, American Association of Railroads has derailment statistics.
Some minor one wheelers can be rerailed by crews. Most require help.
Yes until its gets bad enough it causes a pile up.
Dragging equipment detector, somebody tells them or the train emergency brakes activate.
Relatively rare.
Air brakes automatically activate when the cars uncouple, on the detached cars and the rest of the train. Been that way since the early 1900’s (air brakes were standard about 1906).
Dave H.
If that’s the case, I’d like to know why there are so many rollaways. There have been a couple in California and CSX has had several this year.[:)]
Hi Pilot, although this is the wrong forum for your questions, here are a couple of answers.
I have heard of train crews using re-railing frogs, not familiar with them or their use, but I believe that they have the ability to re-rail a car that has not moved the wheel far from the rail, most likely used when just one axle of a cars truck has derailed, any real rails care to elaborate more on this?
A derail can be detected in many ways a single axle derailment may be noticed during switching in yards or at a customers spur. A derailment could also be detected by a “Dragging Equipment Detector” or by another train crew doing what is called a “Roll By Inspection” crews of trains passing each other are supposed to watch the other train for problems such as that or shifting loads or any other defect or unsafe situation. Also the most obvious way to detect a derailment would be a derailment severe enough to cause a train to BREAK APART, resulting in the brakes going into EMERGENCY, and stopping the train, at which point the crew would “WALK the TRAIN” to find the cause of the EMERGENCY application of the brakes.
An uncoupling probably shouldn’t be very common, but I am sure that they happen. Probably the most common cause of a “Break Apart” would be a KNUCKLE failure, parts and tools are carried on locomotives to repair broken knuckles on the spot.
The provision for automatic braking is managed by the air brake system. The air brake system has pressure in the train line when running, usually at around 90 PSI, but this can vary some. each car has an air reservoir on it that the train line charges, then when the engineer applies the brakes, the train line actually reduces in pressure, which the “Triple Valve” senses the pressure drop and opens a valve to release pressure from the air reservoir to the brake cylinder on the car, applying the brakes. When a Brake Apart occurs this will separate the train line resulting
Hi Jeffery,
My post right below yours explains this, but basically when crews are switching cars without the air lines connected, they bleed down the air reservoirs completely, leaving NO AIR left to apply the brakes (rail cars DO NOT use spring brakes like trucks do for loss of air application and parking brake application) A roll away occurs when a car is parked with the air bled down and the hand brake not set.
Doug
Railroads keep in-house stats of derailments. The AAR and FRA also keep stats for the industry as a whole.
Minor derailments, like one or two wheels on the ground with the trucks in-line, can usually be cleaned up with rerailing shells and blocks and wedges. If you don’t have shells, sometimes you can use blocks and a turnout frog. Or if you’re good, a spike.
Anything more then that, and it’s 1-800-BIG-HOOK.
Derailed cars can travel a surprising distance, especially if the wheels are in-line with the rail. Generally, such cars will continue to roll until the encounter an obstacle, like a grade crossing, turnout, or curve.
Major derailments, where the rail rolls, the trucks come apart, or a picked switch, almost always bring the train to an immediate halt.
Usually, the train goes into emergency. It could also be reported by a by-stander or defect detector.
This is rather rare, but it does happen. Sometimes slack action can work the cutting levers, but usually it’s some joker pulling up cutting lever. Broken knuckles and drawheads, are more common causes of train separations.
Air brakes are fail safe. Under normal operating conditions, with a full charge of air, a car will stop when the brake line is broken. Air brake can and do “bleed off” there-by releasing the brakes and causing the car to roll away if not properly secured with a handbrake or chocks.
Nick
US freight cars certainly don’t, but elsewhere in the world a lot of multiple unit cars use spring parking brakes. The cars I run were converted from hand brakes to spring brakes during the early 1990s.
Cheers,
Mark.
Here is a picture of a re-railer tool on #844
Be careful of media reports on derailments. They don’t get all the info and then they usually mangle what they get.
Recently I read an article about a derailment caused bu a cut of cars coming uncoupled and rolling into another group of cars and derailing. Sounds terrible? The thing they didn’t mention is that it was a hump yard. I finally figured it out by the town they said it was near. Virtually every car in the yard has at one time or another been uncoupled and rolled into another group of cars.
So take media reports with a grain of salt.
Dave H.
Train derailments happen often enough to be newsworthy, usually when some kind of burning chemical causes evacuations. And there was this one:
Where the train carrying space shuttle parts derailed because a poorly maintained bridge on a shortline collapsed and tossed the cars over on their sides. Real trains derail on a regular basis, just like cars crash into each other on a regular basis.
[:D]Are you asking this question because you have alot of derailments on your layout, and what to check if it is prototypical?
If your get ahold of someone at Canadian National, they seem to have one once a week and probally could give you some good information [}:)]
I remember reading (probably somewhere on the forum, if someone recalls, or cares to do a search) that there was one instance where a freight car had a bit of a up and down rocking motion (possibly due to out of round wheels, or something), and had some extra long uncoupling levers, and managed to bounce at just the same time the coupler went slack, causing an uncoupling. Maybe that story came from Brakie?
I watched a CSX crew rerail a locomotive once several years ago. They had 3 or 4 units (can’t remember what kind of units they had, or even if they were 4 or 6 axle units), one of which had put an axle on the ground. The crews fixed the rail pretty quick. I arrived (as a spectator) about the time they were bolting the rerail frogs to the rails. It was something of an under the rail arrangement. Once that was done, they used a cable to pull the derailed unit with the others (not sure why they didn’t just couple on; I’m sure they had their reasons. Possibly they didn’t want to break a knuckle). A few feet later and the axle was back on the rails.
I saw that photo of 844, and I see the rerail frog has “tabs” which apparently are supposed to butt up to the edges of the ties, and would keep the frogs from sliding (which, I’m sure, is why CSX had to bolt their frogs to the rails in the first place).
Brad
Rollaways aren’t common. Main reason that they are uncommon is that they are mostly a result of someone messing up, that person will be identified… and disciplined.
Okay, vandalism is a possible cause. The penalties for those caught would be high. Occasionally an idiot trying this sort of thing gets themselves run over or, in electrified areas, fried.
The main cause of a rollaway waould be someone failing to secure the handbrake (or in a few cases some other variety of “parking” brake). This more often than not happens when someone expects someone else to wind or lever on a brake or sufficient brakes on a string of cars. It shouldn’t happen because anyone has left stock held by air (or vacuum) brakes only.
Hmmm… now that’s interesting… Something seems to be backwards there…
Okay…
I know that an EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) can roll away because it has been left with only the air brakes holding it and they leaked off… I know this because a 4 car escaped from Caterham (terminus) some years ago. (IIRC it rolled clean through Croydon and was finally put into a sand drag at Selhurst Depot)… quick thinking and the opportunity to make it a pathway saved a worse incident.
In that case the guard (conductor) thought the driver was staying on the train and vice versa… they met by the kettle in the mess room… The -brief- discussion about “screwing the brake down” and dash back to the door was long enough for the unit to be on its way.
Air brakes rely on air pressure being in the brake cylinder. If you disconnect the air line, the brakes apply, but no more air supply.
Eventually the air leaks out of the brake cylinder and the brakes release. It could take minutes or it could take hours. Depends on the car.
That’s why every rule book in the US says that air brakes cannot be relied upon to hold a cars disconnected from a train. You have to use handbrakes.
Urban legend. There is a valve where the hose connects to the engine, the angle cock. If it was just an engine then there would be no air pressure in the airbrake hose because it wouldn’t be connected to anything. You could shoot at the hoses all day and never set the brakes.
Dave H.
How many derailments?
Who’s counting?
Who’s looking?
What counts as a derailment?
One wheel off? Two wheels? One axle? Two axles?
Has it dropped and stopped (the stop being a quick response)?
Has it stayed upright?
Has it “sat down”?
Has it tipped or rolled?
Has any load shifted or spilt?
Has any damage been done to the load?
Has any damage been done to the track?
Has any damage been done to the car?
Has anything (apart from the dirt) been hit?
Has any (noticeable) dealy been caused?
Was the car/train being pulled or pushed?
Are there any marks left on the ties?
What actually caused the derailment (not that there was one…).
I wasn’t there… but… I do know that you can put 20+ ballast cars in the dirt on a push back and then, by going forward very carefully, put them all back on.
I’ve seen a 4axled loco put two axles in the dirt in a complex of switches and be put back on with the assistance of carefully placed fishplates. I think tht what really upset them was that they then managed to put off one axle at the other end… or maybe it was us falling about laughing…
On a MoW job there are usually assorted jacks and stuff about that can do the job… when old hands know how.
The re-railing frogs I know of… I actually found a pair here in the UK last month… are big steel letter Ys with a slot in the leg (from the notch end) that goes over the rail. I think the models I have are by Detail Associates. I was amazed by how small the real things are… and how heavy. (Only about 30" long and about 112lbs - 150lbs).
BIG QUESTION in any derail… how fast was it going?
Same as a car smash - the faster you go the more damage will result. On the RR this applies even if you don’t hit anything.
When you hit something on the RR there is going to be damage
Human error plays a major roll in some types of derailments.
When I worked on the PRR I was called as rear brakeman on a intercity industrial switch job…We had to set out a empty gon out at a scrap yard that was on a facing point switch.Now usually we would switch this on the return trip to the yard but that particular night we had no work to do beyond the scrap yard.
It was decided by the conductor that we would simply do a flying switch to save time after all we have done that in the past before with no problems but still considered a high risk move and frown on by the PRR…
Well we set up the flying switch and the engineer gave that old gon a pretty good shove and all was going as we planned–until the head brakeman realized he swung onto the wrong end of the gon to use the hand brake to stop that gon so he swung off the gon to catch the other end but misjudged the grabs and could not swing back on…Now the scrap yard siding was on a slight down grade and that gon of course picked up extra speed with 2 brakemen and conductor in hot foot pursuit needless to say that gon whiz off the end of the scrap yard siding,through a wooden fence gate and onto the street.
Needless to say we had to answer up to the division superintendent who had no kind words for us concerning our lack switching skills…Of course we received 5 days off .We was advised to buy some toy trains while we was off and brush up on our switching skills as we surely lack those most important skills
[(-D] Brakie, that’s a great story. Well, at least human error is funny.