I think I’ll be fine modeling the scenery of the layout I have in mind.
What I am struggling with – because I’ve been away from MRRing for almost 30 years – is how to model a real area. In this case, it’s somewhat approximate because it’s a past era and the yard and track serving two stations have been removed. But I know the general layout of track. I can draw it. I need to create a track plan out if it, though, to help me purchase and then lay track. Turnout size, custom track lengths (I actually have rail nippers), all that stuff.
The model railroad CAD programs help you draw and keep you “honest” by maintaining to-scale measurements, but you still must do the majority of the “thinking” work yourself in terms of selective compression and how elements must be curved to fit into the typical space.
Many folks find that the learning curve for CAD for a single design just for yourself not worth the time and trouble.
As long as you draw to scale using templates or accurate measurements for the turnouts and other components you plan to use, drawing carefully by hand also works fine.
In doing the exact same thing, I started with my (gathered by walking the territory) prototype ground and track plans. I also acquired the equivalent of the USGS contour map for the area, which included some info on rail routes. then I drew out a schematic of what I wanted to model.
Then came the revelation that, lacking a supermarket or aircraft hangar to build in, a LOT of selective compression (and deliberate omission) would be required.
Enter John Armstrong’s Track Planning for Realistic Operation. By reading his description of planning using `squares,’ I figured out just how to bend the spaghetti (my schematic) to fit the available bowl (my layout space, including all impedimentia such as room and closet doors, windows, wall bump-outs…) and just how many strands would actually fit. Since this is a wetware process (i.e. - requires actual thought, not just mouse maneuvers) it’s better done as a quick sketch on scratch paper with a pencil. Once you have a sketch that might be workable you can go on-screen with a CAD program - a procedure about which I admit total ignorance.
As far as the dimensions of specialwork, I build my own from raw rail. If I can draw it, I can build it - and I’m not limited to the dimensions of Brand X when I lay out puzzle palaces of curved three-way switches or double and single slips. Admittedly, there is a learning curve, and hand-laying specialwork is not everyone’s cup of o-cha. If you can, and do, build your own you can achieve results that will never be found in a box or blister pack.
Just my [2c], other opinions are sure to differ.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in a Southern Nevada double garage)
I can’t help you with deciding how big and what shape your layout will be, but on mine I laid out the available space that I could use. Then I roughed out the track plan on the available space. when it came to curves where I didn’t have the space to use a Trammel (stick with holes in it) to mark the curves I cut a series of quarter circles 18" radius to 24" out of a scrap of Masonite to use . I could lay this templet in place to see what room I had. See picture.
If you want to try some track planning software, Atlas RTS is free and fairly easy to use. It would be a start. Supposedly you can print out a full size plan.
The limiting factor is that the track libraries are only Atlas products, but they may be close for what you want.
I second the use of Atlas RTS, but: (1) it totally depends upon your liking/comfort of using computer tools, if you like it then it will save you tons of timeand (2) you have to have a basic plan based on your available space and constraints as others have suggested.
Building a model railroad is a pretty big task, so I decided early on to stay away from hand laying to have any hope of finishing without frustrating myself and giving up. It looks ugly, but hey, I run trains and I installed miles of wiring to compensate for the easiness encountered in laying track.
Curves and grades are absolutely the most important thing- absolutely can not cut corners here. I have done so on my first real layout (the first one was a two weekend 8x4 which was promptly dismantled), and I am paying the price. In one case, it only needs moving an entire yard by three inches to make the approach to it less curve. Just three inches!
Back to CAD. I designed and laid out my track plan for literally four months in which I went through three major revisions. This was absolutely not possible if I did physical template based planning. I would have given up.
These are my few cents. I am hoping they are useful.
Yes and no. Track plan drawing software help keep you honest with regards to thing like whether something will fit. It doesn’t really help you that much with the design as such.
I know you want to do riverfront Mpls in the 1960s, and that you want two stations. But what is your overall conceptual plan - is it mainly to model passenger trains arriving and departing from the passenger station, or something else? How big is your room? How much of it can be used for a layout? How much staging do you plan to use? single ended staging or run-though staging? What scale do you want to model in?
i might not understand your question. You seem to know quite well which scenes you want to model. But how to condense them into a model railroad track plan?
It toke me years to really understand why so many of my efforts failed. The scenes I wanted to model faithfully were way to large for the space I had. To much selective compression was needed; having a 3 track terminal and calling it Grand Central NY isn’t really convincing.
Looking for scenes small enough to be modelable was a major step. Not only the trackplan wise also in terms of operation. Running one, or two trains at a time at most, is far away from Grand Central as well.
IMHO the moment your wishes are in line with the available space, trackplanning is not that difficult anymore. It might take quite some time behind the drawingboard however to get in terms with the possibilities. As John Armstrong found out the minimum mainline radius is the most important planning item. Coaches with diaphragms need way more then a 18" radius and #4 turnouts in HO. The same applies for large steamers and modern freightcars.
If you are familiar about drawing with squares, a John Armstrong invention as well, your plan can probably be built as drawn. No use to learn CAD unless you like it as a hobby in itself.
On the other hand, if you can draw it as you stated yourself, just make the drawing and show a copy on here. A sincere hand-drawn copy is enough. (a pic made by a digital camera will do)
This is going to sound silly but first railways are very big and you have to accept you are not going to get it all in your hobby room unless you own and aircraft hanger and have thrown out the planes.
Given recent world events I don’t know how hard it will be to get a track diagram and diagram of signaling for the area chosen, out of the railroad to be modeled if you can do so.
If your lucky they may still have the diagrams for your chosen period. This will make sure you have the right idea, then you have to work out if you can compress it enough, and what key features must be there. You will need structure photos and plans for railroad structures, and key non railroad buildings that just scream this is where we are. Most places have something or a style that tells you just where you are.
When doing a particular place be prepared for a load of scratch building of structures. For scenes you want photo’s are yet again your Friend and will help get land form shapes right.
You have a lot of research to do.
Can’t help much with computer programs that just is not my thing.
Oh and if a local happens to say Oh I remember that in XX / XX / XX it should be, listen to them you might just get that little gem of information that gets it just so.
I should clarify that the scene I want to model will only be a fraction of the Mpls riverfront. I would have no way (maybe even WITH an aircraft hangar) to model the whole thing!
There is a very famous stretch of the river (well, famous if you live here) that brings together three things I love: old (large) depots (Great Northern and Milwaukee Road – blocks apart), a freaight yard (which, yes, I will have to condense) and three railroad bridges, including the spectacular Stone Arch Bridge built by James J Hill in 1883.
Fortunately the Milwaukee road Depot and the three bridges are still standing.
My difficulty will be desiding the cutoff points, the parts to condense or leave out and (the main question of this thread) how to build a track list out of what I draw. Turnout types, custom track segments etc.
I just have never had to worry much about detail in how track is layed. I never modeled a real area before either. Doing so means I need to use the wider radius I’ve used before because of the passenger coaches I’d like to use. I won’t know if I’m out of luck until I actually sit down and do the measuring against my curve diameters, I guess. And of course I need to decide how to loop my scene for continuous running. The riverfront will be my main scene and my room size likely means I will do a narrow shelf around the rest of the room to connect a two-line loop surrounded by some nature scenery.
12X11 room. Thinking U-shaped layout with one side of the U wider than the other and the main scene taking up the L. Daunting to think about. But exciting at the same time.
I am aware of the scratch building of structures. I have already tracked down a variety of photos (Historical Society) showing the rail yard, the aligning structures and the Great Northern Depot that is no longer standing (sadly). So I get a general sense of arrangement of track from that. I am not so particular that I think I can replicate the entire yard as it ran for a long way in the 50s and 60s. But the part of the yard that sits in the focal point for me I will do my best to reproduce. But of course, seeing as how my room is not shaped like the Mpls riverfront I will have to adapt – while keeping my keeping my main pieces faithful. Stone Arch bridge, Milwaukee road Depot and bridge, Great Northern Depot.
I wish my grandfather was still with us. Granted, he’d be 105 if he was! But he worked right down in the thick of it for many years.
I agree that the milling district and the warehouse district are fascinating areas to model. Do you have Don Hofsommer’s excellent book “Minneapolis and the age of Railways” already?
Have you looked at the photos at the Minnesota Historical Society’s Visual Resources collection site?
Smile,
Stein, who also hava a layout loosely inspired by this area, but urban freight switching only
The reason for choosing this area to model is that I have a local connection to it but at a time when it’s past its prime in terms of railroad service. I want to recreate the area in an era when two major Mpls landmarks (Milwaukee Road depot and Stone Arch bridge) were serving the railroad. And one former landmark now razed – so that i can run the famous Great Northern out of its dept.
The staging – from the photos I have because the yard I want to recreate (condensed) no longer exists – would allow run-through staging. I already see an oportunity to simplify the coordination of the scene by shifting the yard to be more in line with trains coming in across the river. It would reduce the realism of that scene somewhat but I don’t pretend I can replicate it 100 percent realistically anyway. I want a funtional layout too, after all.
I am very comfortable with design programs in other walks of life, so computer-aided design doesnot scare me. I just had no idea where to start. I see a few free programs out there but they seem limiting.
Well, a good place to begin is to visualize the lenght of trains - which drive staging length, platform length, yard track length etc, plus desired traffic pattern - i.e where you want trains to enter the layout and what you want them to do on the layout.
You want to run passenger trains - here the choice of modeling scale is important, since it drives both curve radius and length of trains.
Figuring out how many switches to buy is a trivial exercise - you just count them on the plan, no matter whether you draw it by hand or using some track drawing program.
You mentioned in your other locomotive thread that you model in HO If so, your ambitions may be too big for a 12X11 room. (Probably too large for N scale, too, but at least you would have a shot.) I hate to be the wet blanket, but it’s probably a good idea to be realistic about space earlier in the process rather than later.
If you want to operate full-length passenger cars in HO, that will dictate 24" radius curves or larger. Just the curves to fit the layout into the room will take a couple of feet from the length of each wall.
As others have mentioned, John Armstrong’s Track Planning for Realistic Operation is a good resource for sketching techniques that will help you rapidly estimate the space required for yard ladders and station throats. Unfortunately, you’ll find that they add up fast in HO.
You can certainly build a fun HO layout in that space, but you might enjoy the process more by beginning with a more achievable scope. The other option would be to stay with your original scope, but to shrink the elements to the extreme – like a two or three track station rather than something more resembling the real thing. Even then it will be a very tight fit and you might not be happy with the effect.
Funny you should mention the Hofsommer book. I ordered it last week and it arrives today. Weird timing.
I’m modeling in HO. And I know that sets alarms off in your head but really it’s a small slice of the riverfront area that I want to model. And maybe it doesn’t work quote how I want it to in the end but I will try to at least be faithful to the key areas inc the 2 main bridges (may have to drop the BNSF bridge) and depots.
The room is 12x11 but I do have extra space down one length of the room to make that wall run about 16 feet. But the length is less an issue than the width so far as I draw conceptual designs – and then promptly crumple them up and toss them
Hmmm - you may possibly be able to do a passable scaled down version of just the Milwaukee Road station, with say 4-5 station tracks and half the freight house, with the milling district represented as background flats as one scene maybe 12-15 feet x 2 feet or so. See the map on pages 124-125 in Hofsommer’s book.
Problem is that a train with say two engines and five coaches are 7 foot long in H0 scale, and you will need a corresponing amount of staging, and you will also quickly run out of depth if you try to do both the riverfront, the tracks between the mills and the Milwaukee Depot.
The key very likely is to go down a scale or to make a smaller selection.
In my opinion, yes. Armstrong squares are useful in deciding if a layout might fit, but won’t help with the actual track plan. RTS is fairly easy to learn, and because it supports using flex track, handy for designing layouts that don’t always fit sectional track (a 26 inch curve for example or an easement).
Having tried to model Union Terminal in Springfield Mass, I would agree with some other posts that it takes more space than you think.
It sounds like you’re doing pretty well, but might I suggest you do some mock-up work? You know you will need a lot of flextrack and turnouts; why not buy a dozen lengths of flextrack, 3 (or more) left hand, and 3 (or more) right hand turnouts. Since you know you will eventuslly use them, it won’t be a waste and you will be able to try out different radii and turnout placement (use spikes, no glue so you can move them easily). Take digital photos (be sure to include notes on radii, etc in these) if possible.
During this time while you’re not building the layout, it’s a good time to focus on finishing some rolling stock and locos, that way, you’re always doing something (even while you’re thinking of something else).
If you are adept at drawing scale drawings, it will surely help your planning efforts. One commonly used scale is 3/4"=1’ (each 1/16" on the scale (ruler) equals one inch in real life); make cardboard templates for curves to keep your sketches honest (when making a turnout template, don’t worry about exact, manufacturer specific, measurements. A simple 1:6, 1:8, etc wedge shape will suffice, just remember to leave a couple inches (at least) in front of the points, and a few inches after the diverging routes (if you estimate too much space, you will be rewarded with more scenery and an easy plan to build; no cramming in of tricky trackwork). Sketch any trackwork that will remain constant, no matter where on your layout it will be (like a passenger station throat), on a small piece of paper you can move independently of the other tracks.
First, begin compressing the trackplan by drawing it out in full (for this, don’t worry about room size, just get all the tracks/industries drawn). With a ‘dream’ layout drawn to scale in front of you, start cutting it up (figuratively or literally) and erasing anything that doesn’t fit into your mental plan as well as general physical space (road
