(taken from other thread, sorry NP2626 I wasn’t trying to steal your thread)
I was thinking, and am thinking about how I can tie in passenger and freight operations into the not yet figured out or drawn track plan. I was looking at how to model passenger train operations and was drawn to a thread that was posted here in 2010.
what I’m wondering is train priority, what’s above what? how can one include “extra’s”, if there is a train waiting on another but the track block is clear can the waiting train advance, switching passenger trains what get’s cut and switched and loaded?
I’d really like to do operations, I was doing on the fly ones on my other layout just sorta switching and moving cars on the fly. I have plenty of notecards that I could write a car/loco’s # and info on and make trains up, would that be easier than “otf” ops?
Such things depend on the railroad, and of course the era that you are modeling.
When I built my previous layout, I designed the entire railroad from north to south and from east to west. I marked where the towns were, I noted where the double track lines were, I calculated the running time between stations and then I started building a timetable to fit this paper layout. Since stations might be 30 minutes to an hour apart and since passing sidings were only located at stations, That restricted who could be on the rails when.
Trains 1 and 2 were the “Kings Express”, Trains 3 and 4 were the “North Star Express”. All four of these trains met at Bree between 1300 and 1400, thus a person (Elf, Dwarf or Hobbit) could travel to an from any place in Middle Earth on just these two trains.
Next I added the Commuter Trains, such as had to arrive at Bree in the morning and depart Bree in the early afternoon, but they could not lay over in Bree, because there were no layover tracks there.
After that I added the regional trains that called in Bree, and finally I worked out how freight trains could wend their way through all of this traffic. The limiting factor was always the physical plant: The location of tracks and sidings. I used String Diagrams to schedule the trains. A copy of the string map for my current layout can be found here. Since it is a round trip run the South Ferry Station in the middle of the diagram is the turning point. That is why you do not see any reverse lines on this map. LION always thought that this part of the planing operations was the most fun.
That’s very complex but it’s so awesome, hmmmmmmm once I have a track plan maybe I can figure out how to time it. do your trains loop to represent distance traveled or do they point to point?
hmmmmmmmmm, my layout was going to be part of the seattle subdivision and part of the portland Sub division(ex SP&S). I was hoping to do a mix of freelance(BN not part of amtrak) and protolance(BN is part amtrak), it would be BN trains holding all priority over other non BN equipment. I was thinking the exec. train would always have track clearance and priority over all trains, then BN(freelance) pass. would have priority over freight, then BN freight would have priority over other companies/amtrak trains. my layout was also going to be a three era styled one, pre merger/BN/BNSF, I don’t have a track plan but I do have an idea of commodities(excluding passengers): grain, lumber, mixed freight, coal, garbage, containers/intermodal. Now I just need a track plan.
No problem Gary, good luck with what your interested in doing!
Passenger trains are one of the reasons I like my era, the transition, as passenger service was still a big part of a railroads way of making money. Back during this time in the history of railroads passenger trains had the right of way over all else. Of course nothing is as simple as that; but, for the most part that was the case. Most railroads also had there “Named Trains” that were the pride of the line and had wonderful paint schemes. If your modeling the modern era, all you have is Amtrak. From my experience riding Amtrak, it is not at the top of the schedule and delays are far too common.
A lot of the options depends on the era. Pre-1985 you would be operating in the train order era. Trains were prioritized by the schedule “class”. First class was the highest class. They were primarily passenger trains. By the BN era, they were operating most trains as “extras”, that is without a timetable schedule. The only trains operating with schedules were passenger trains.
The freight trains had “priority” that was entirely a management decision, it carried no authority in the rules. The highest priority trains were the piggyback trains, especially those carrying UPS. Later when the container business started, stack trains were second. After that were auto trains, especially the trains carrying auto parts. In the manifest trains most railroads had a two levels of general freight trains, a premium manifest that carried chemicals or priority business than then a general freight trains. Bulk trains were about the general freight train in priority. Empty coal trains were hotter normally than loaded coal trains. The bottom rung were locals and yard engines.
Railroads have service schedules that say what trains they will operate when, what traffic they will carry and where they will do work. They are different from timetable schedules in they don’t grant authority to operate on the main track. They just are a blueprint for what trains to run. From a timetable standpoint, all the trains run as “extras”. What you are talking about with “extras” I believe&n
The way real railroads do things is that if a train is operating on trackage rights over another railroad, the train is treated the same as any train of the same priority as the home road. So if a another railroad’s piggyback train operating over the BN, then the BN would treat it the same as one of their piggyback trains. If the BN would prioritize one of its piggyback trains over one of its manifest trains, then the BN should prioritize the foreign piggyback over a BN manifest freight. If you don’t you can expect phone calls from the other road’s Vice President of Operations.
On real railroads its supposed to be priority over priority, not railroad over railroad. It doesn’t always work that way but when it doesn’t it escalates up to the executive offices and can even get the ICC/STB involved.
Amtrak technically has priority over all trains (even over the executive trains) by law. If the railroads stab Amtrak too much they have to pay penalties for poor performance or can get taken to court by Amtrak.
My trains do not loop. On the layout that I was describing, only the layout between Bree and Fornost was modeled with staging loops for destinations east, south, and west, thus each train entered the modeled layout, did its business and left.
On my present layout, the actual layout is point to loop, but nobody can figure that out on their own. The Broadway Local is 9 miles round trip and calls at 32 platform edges. (16 stations). It takes 20 minutes to do the run, and I am presently running trains every five minutes (not counting the two express trains which each run on a closed loop, although nobody can tell that either.) When I do some more work on the signal system, I’ll add two more trains to the layout and run the local every three minutes.
So the Seattle Division? between what stations? Draw those stations and their tracks, fill in the rest of the layout, and then add industries as space allows. I too live on the BNSF nee NP, and while we used to see coal trains almost exclusively we now see oil trains and increased grain trains.
Below is a REAL train layout for a REAL BNSF TRAIN. Does it give you any ideas?
I drove out there the other day, the second loop (to the left is in and operating. The loop to the right is actually four tracks, Unit oil trains on the Right, unit sand trains on the left. The dirt road to the right is the only vehicle access, oil tankers maybe 20 at a time are waiting their turn to unload, the can unload perhaps six trucks at once. Oil also arrives at this facility by pipeline.
Two weeks ago, somebody on the SubChat Forum posted a picture of a unit oil train leaving New Jersey with about 100 tank cars behind a pair of BNSF and NS locomotives. There was a box car to separate the tank cars from the engines. The same consist was seen here in Dickinson later in the week, NS locomotive and all. That
hmmmmm, interesting so if I take 4 consists for example: A BN pass. train, an amtrak train, an MRL train, and a BN mixed freight.
Amtrak over the BN pass. then the MRL, and finally the BN mixed freight? this is right yes? and then on BN primary traffic a mixed freight, a roadrailer train, a local, and a loaded coal drag.
Executive trains would get the LOWEST priority. They are not paying customers, and the Executives know it. They would be quite upset to see paying traffic on the sidings as they go sailing by.
The exec train would be unlikely to PASS anything once it got rolling, but almost always has sufficient HP/ton to stay in front of anything that might be behind it (unless it’s running in Acela territory.)
A dynamometer car would simply run in a train, coupled immediately behind the locomotive.
A track geometry train is a bottom-class extra, authorized onto the tracks when no one else needs them.
Heavy maintenance (rail grinding, tie and rail replacement) will disrupt everything, so such activities are scheduled well in advance and have clearly defined space-time ‘windows’ to get their work done.
Back before sidebooms rolled to wreck sites on roads, when the wreck train was called it had priority over EVERYTHING.
Up until the advent of train radio and track warrants, the railroads ran by timetable and train order (usually shortened to TTTO.) If traffic required, scheduled trains (passenger or freight) could run in two or more sections. Allegedly, some WWII scheduled freights on the N&W Shenandoah Valley route ran in as many as ten sections.
For more than you ever wanted to know about how trains were kept out of each other’s way during the TTTO era (and some early words on CTC) find a copy of Peter Josserand’s Rights of Trains. It’s a heavy read, but worth it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - TTTO, 24/30)
Technically you would never have a “BN” and an Amtrak psgr train at the same time. Amtrak eliminated railroad’s passenger trains (except for the DRGW and Southern). You of course can do anything you want.
BN and Amtrak psgr trains are equal. MRL and BN mixed freights are equal. You only have two priorities there. Psgr and mixed freight.
Well, not quite. It depends on the executive. I have seen people ripped a new one for an executive train that saw a yellow. In most cases they want to make their schedule and minimize train delays. I don’t think you will have a railroad big enough to really worry about it.
On the other hand, test trains are structured to run when and where they will do the least interference. A dynamometer car on trains doesn’t impact the operation of the train at all, its completely transparent, except at the terminal where its cut in or out.
Two of the times I have ridden passenger trains, one in the transition era and more recently on Amtrak, the passenger train took the siding on the single track main. (Don’t remember meeting on the other trips.) In both cases it could have been that the freight was too long for the siding, not sure. I don’t think the steam train was the lines named train, I was a little young to appreciate such things. It was a TRAIN RIDE!
I would also think that if a heavy train was headed upgrade, a lighter one would take to the siding.
Chuck Hitchcock’s 7-page, Twelve Hours at Argentine, is an excellent insight into Santa Fe’s passenger operations including his passenger yard design. Passenger operations rationale is also thorough in its’ preceding pages.
Frank Ellison’s legacy is “legend” as to freight yard design through freight operations priorities – And, I am still in awe everytime I review his work. Frank’s 1944 MR Series, The Art of Model Railroading, is a complimentary PDF.
One thing I have picked up over the years, is how railroads primarily exist for freight operations, with an occasional interlude for “passenger train rights” over the freight trackage.
P.S.: BTW, a nice thread here about planning priorities for operations.
I pity the tower operator or dispatcher that puts the business train in the siding…These train was high priority since the officials and select shippers on board was going to attend business meetings,convention or maybe a horse race or ball game.
Even a ferry move of a business train is high priority.
As far as Amtrak most railroads sees Amtrak as a pain in their derriere they can’t get rid of.
Gary, Information on operation is sort of like drinking water from a fire hydrant, isn’t it!
It appears to me that it would take a lifetime of learning to truly understand how to prototypically operate a model railroad. I think many of us who are attempting to operate our railroads maybe settle on a few aspects of the job and let much of the rest of it go.
I think it is extremely important that a person not be overwelmed when it comes to learning about operations and feel the best way to learn would be to join an operating group and have the ropes be shown to us via a “hands on-one on one” method.
Even at that model operation won’t even come close to real railroad operation due to the safety and operation rules,the ups and downs of daily railroading and how many running a local has the patients to wait in the siding while the DS runs several trains around them?
I think many of us who are attempting to operate our railroads maybe settle on a few aspects of the job and let much of the rest of it go.
You’re right on spot with that advance.A modeler should find a simple form of operation that pleases him and base his operation around that choice.
