Dont know how to wire a 450 block signal to alt between red and green. I have an insulated track section in place. There are 8 numbered terminals on the back of the DPDT relay. What wires match up with what numbers?
Hello John!
I’m not sure how the wiring works with the relay. however, my suggestion would be to buy the Lionel 153 Infrared Controller. It is housed in a simulated Trackside Control Box & is painted silver. I bought one of them for the OTTS Layout in Mentor for a #153 Block Signal & it works like a charm evertime & it is around $26.00. The Relay you have sounds too complicated to wire as a Block Signal only has Three Posts & your Relay has Eight. Anyway, you can wire multiple Block Signals to the 153IR & that should be helpful.Take Care.
Like Keith mentioned you have too many wires on the DPDT switch, you only need three terminals or a SPDT switch and grab a common ground for the lights on the signal if you want to go that way. The IR(infrared sensor) is nice but a little more expensive and sometimes not sensitive enough(IR sensor). I have some IR sensors and don’t really like them that much as the train needs to be very close to the IR sensor in order to work!
Lee F.
How do you want the signals to work? You mentioned only one track. Are you planning to have one or two signal heads controlled by that one control rail? If so, you don’t need a relay at all–you can do it with an extra number-57 lamp for each signal head you use.
I want each signal to operate separately via 2 different insulated tracks. I got the DPDT because they didnt have SPDT relays. I may get 2 SPDT DC relays and convert the power to AC instead.
Well, that rules out the lamp trick, unless you’re able to insulate the body of at least one of the signal heads.
There’s nothing wrong with using a DPDT and just ignoring one set of contacts. There is no standard numbering of the relay terminals; so you’ll just have to experiment if you don’t have a data sheet. Do you have a manufacturer’s name and model number? Maybe we can find it on the internet.
bob, I just figured out that this relay isnt rated for less than about 30 volts. I miss calculated in the store the lowest amount of volts allowed for activation. Ill have to get the 12 volt dc relays since thats the only other alternative.
Its funny that you brought up insulating one of the signal heads. When we got these signals, they were already modified to allow 2 grounds. They placed a piece of electrical tape between the bridge and the screw that holds the signal head on both sides. I was wondering why the one side wouldnt light unless I used a wire that was added.
Thanks again for your help!
Well, then the lamp trick is still a possibility. It’s pretty simple. Wire the red lamp to the accessory supply, the green lamp to common (outside rails), and the body of the signal head to the control rail. Then wire a number 57 lamp in parallel with the number 53 red lamp.
Found a 57 bulb and tried your method. The results were the red lamp staying on constantly even when the train passes the insulated rail. I tried another wiring pattern:
red 53 ------> white 57 -------> common
green -----> accessory terminal
base of 450 -------> insulated rail
the results are that the red light stays on until the train passes the insulated rail and then the light switches to green. I tried playing around with the wiring to get this reversed but no luck.
Id like to keep all my signals red over green but if there is no solution I guess ill switch the bulbs.
(accessory voltage)—(red 53 lamp)—(green 53 lamp)—(layout common)
| |
-----(57 lamp)-----(control rail)
The control rail is connected to the body of the signal head, which also connects to one side of each lamp.
When there is no train on the control rail, the red and green lamps are in series between the accessory voltage and layout common, but the red lamp is shunted by having the 57 lamp in parallel with it, which keeps it from lighting but lights the green lamp almost fully. When a train connects the control rail to layout common, the green lamp is shorted out and the red lamp is connected between the accessory voltage and layout common, lighting it fully. The 57 lamp also lights; so you might want to hide it or put it somewhere where an occasionally lit lamp is appropriate.
tested this new method and it shorted. tried to modify the diagram a bit but the kws breaker tripped every time. Then I tried the old method again and the system worked except, like before, the lights are reversed.
I tried switching the bulbs but the red still lit in the other slot!!! /this whole thing is an inigma but Ill keep working at it until the signal is working…
How do you have your KW wired? If you have U connected to the layout common (outside rails generally), your A and B outputs vary between 6 and 20 volts, your C output is at 6 and your D output is at 20. The lamps in the 450 are number 53s, which are rated for 14.4 volts; so, unless you dedicate either the A or B for accessories, you can’t get 14 volts relative to U. You could use C as the common, to get 14 volts at D; but that would reduce your track voltage range to 0 to 14 volts, which is a little low.
Assuming you don’t want to go that low, do you have a small transformer you could use for accessories instead of the KW, one that can put out close to 14 volts?
However you do it, you need an accessory voltage that is about 14 volts relative to the layout common. For testing at least, you can use the KWs A or B output, set to 14 volts.
Connect that accessory voltage to signal-bridge terminal 2, which should be the one that goes to the red lamp. Then connect the body of the signal head to the control rail. Nothing should light. Then try putting a car on the control rail. The red light should come on.
Now connect the number-57 lamp between the accessory voltage and the control rail. Now when you put a car on the control rail the red light and the 57 should both light up.
Now connect terminal 1 to the layout common. The green light should come on. But, when you put a car on the control rail, the green light should go off and the red light and the 57 should light up.
In order for the two signal heads to work independently, their bodies should not be connected together; but each head’s body should be connected to its own control rail.
If the functions of the red and green lamps are swapped, don’t worry about it. We should be able to take care of that after you get it working otherwise. Lionel intended for the red lamp to be on top, which
I quote Borat when I say “GREAT SUCCESS!!!”
red over green and alternates correctly at 14 volts. Both lamps turn off fully when not activated rather than dimming like before. I was planning on using the KW for accessories so using the A or B posts wont be a problem.
Bob, thanks for helping me through this. Now I can use this method instead of relays on all my other signals.
Great! I’m glad it’s working for you now.
While you were fixing it on your end, I thought of a fairly decent way to solve the voltage problem. It’s not as good as your solution of simply using the A or B outputs; but it might help someone else who needs to use the 20 volts from the D terminal of a KW. It is simply to put a rectifier diode in series with the 20 volts to each signal head. This will cut the RMS voltage to about a perfect 14 volts. One should use two diodes, one for each signal head and pointed in opposite directions. That way, the DC currents will cancel, keeping the transformer cooler, except for the brief periods when one signal is red and the other green. Even then the DC unbalance will be only 108 milliamperes.
I always wonder why Lionel put the red light on top. Did their designers just look out the window at a traffic signal and assume that railroad signals were the same? Surely someone must have pointed this oddity out to them; but they persisted with upside-down signals for many years.
You bring up a good point with the signals. I only have red/yellow signals on the railroads by me but if I did see a green over red signal i might be compelled to write them a letter and say they have their signals wrong.
Lionel made these signals red over green because kids would relate to traffic signals more than train signals IMO.