I’ve been an HO model railroader since 1959, and currently have a “well run”, 11x15, double layer, DC powered layout. The layout runs off of two MRC Controlmaster 20 units, and with the handheld controllers they have all the power and control to make me happy. As we both are getting older (the layout is 14 and I’m 64), I am looking to do a complete rebuild sometime after the Holidays. While my layout building skills are pretty good, my electronics expertise is not. In short (pun intended), I can wire a house, but understanding electronic stuff is often a challenge.
Given the above, I am trying to keep an open mind about converting to DCC when I build the new layout. I have read a few Kalmbach books on the subject, several articles, and posted questions on the DCC Forum. While some of the jargon is still a mystery to me, I think I’ve got the concept down pretty good.
I can readily understand why those with very large layouts and/or multiple operators would “need” DCC. I also understand why folks with smaller layouts and/or a couple of locos would gravitate towards DCC. But, I have a hard time justifying my conversion to DCC, given that I have a medium sized layout, and a whole lot of locos (6- all powered F unit ABBA Stewart consists, 8 steam locos, 12 P2k diesel locos, and 9 Kato/Atlas/Spectrum diesel locos), and, I am your typical “lone wolf” model railroader.
Using ballpark figures, I would expect a decent conversion would cost about $1500 plus (includes 53 decoders). While the cost is not a show stopper, it is significant. And then of course there is the significant learning curve for me to get everything installed and working properly.
So, what will DCC do for me, that makes it worth the cost, time and probably “headaches” - which I’ve
Mobilman: I sat on the fence and railed against DCC for a couple of years and now, after having used DCC for two years now, I can’t figure out why I was against it in the first place. I guess the main part of it was that I was afraid of change. Like you, I figured the entire cost up front and how many hours ut would take to convert 40+ locos to DCC. Then I sat back and figured that if I went into it slowly, converted a few now then do a few more next month and just buy what I needed for the moment I would pull it off in time. So I started off in DCC with a Bachmann EZ-Command system because I was just going to be running a few locos at a time. While I was doing that I was buying more decoders and gladly accepting those that were given to me by other modelers and trading for some here and there. I now have half my fleet converted to DCC and I just recently upgraded to a Digitrax DCC system with some monetary help from some friends out there on the forum (you know who you are) and there are more decoders on the way. Before long I’ll have all my locos (most are good runners) converted and I’ll be able to direct all my energy to scenery once again. I am by no means a wealthy man, my entire monthly income is just over $600, so I make use of whatever I can. Getting DCC cost a bit more at the beginning but it saves more in the long run in time, wiring, toggle switches, etc. This hobby is what you make of it and I’m making what I can of it with what little I’ve got and am enjoying it to the full. I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I really think it comes down to how you operate (or want to operate) your layout and expenses.
If you are a lone wolf and only plan to operate two locomotives at a time, your current set will work just fine for you. It’s reliable, your familiar with it, it works - these are all pluses to sticking with what you already have. However, if you are thinking about getting into MUing locomotives, switching, utilizing all the sound options and lighting effects (i.e. mars and ditch lights), and simplifying your wiring, DCC has the advantage.
What makes DCC worth the cost for me? I really like the fact that, with DCC, I’m operating my locomotives rather than my layout. I also enjoy being able to independently operate two or more locomotives at any given time on the same track. Everything but my turnouts is controlled via the throttle. I don’t have to throw switches or controllers just to move a train around my layout.
Course, I came on board with DCC early on. So the expensive to convert a multitude of locomotives was not an issue for me. However, I can understand how those who do have quite a DC fleet might feel reluctant to convert.
Mobilman, probably the best thing for you to do would be to go to a MRR club open house or LHS where they have DCC. This way you could see it first hand and perhaps get some hands-on experience; at the same time asking questions so that you can make an informed choice as to whether DCC would be right for you.
You can do all the reading you want. However, make sure you try DCC out before making any kind of decision yea or nay.
Count me in the camp of those who, having looked at MY givens and druthers, MY skills and abilities and the way I operate MY railroad empire, have decided that the disadvantages of going to an unfamiliar and expensive system outweigh any discernable advantages.
People will tell you about sound with DCC. No one will ask if you want or need sound. IMHO, until an on-board speaker can reproduce the full-throated roar of a steam locomotive battling a grade, fuhgeddaboudit.
People will talk about, “Running a train, not a railroad.” What if you want to run the railroad and are content to let the trains run themselves, ‘Fire and forget,’ fashion? With analog DC, all I need is a few cheap resistors and diodes. With DCC - ??? (computer interface? automated electronic throttle?)
So maybe I’m an old stick-in-the-mud, too lazy to stretch my feeble brain around new concepts because the old stone axe still cuts trees. Or, maybe, I believe in the old mechanic’s adage:
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with 1964 control technology)
2: attempt to break the land speed record in a rocket car at Bonneville
3: Get an I Love Lucy face tattoo
4: Buy a sub-prime mortgage home
5: Steal a steak from a former Michael Vick pit bull
Just because it CAN be done, in no way means that you SHOULD do it. DCC has great advantages in many ways over conventional block wiring, but I don’t use DCC because those advantages mean exactly nothing to me in the way I operate my railroad. I would simply be buying a system that I will not be using as designed, so why spend the money? Block wiring has worked well for me for many years and I don’t see that changing any time soon. So be old fashioned, what of it, who are you trying to impress?
I think your $1500 estimate is a bit low. Your looking at around $1100-$1200 just for your decoders before you even open up a loco and try to install one. You always run into more expenses one you start wiring them in. (especially with older locos)
I think DCC is a heck of a lot more fun even if your running by yourself.
I am in a similar situation. I started out with DCC, because the wiring is simpler and I liked the idea of running trains without throwing toggle swithes and all that goes with a DC layout. I to still do not have decoders in all my locos. Now, the situation. I have always wanted sound for my trains. Now that it is available, I am faced with a huge expence to upgrade everything to sound decoders. After installing one, the quality of sound is at best, bad. Also, I like to run deisels mostly, and you will never get that deep rumble from a speaker that will fit inside a locomotive. There has recently been a product released that uses speakers placed around the layout and utilizes a sub woofer. So, I am thinking that this is the way to go. This set up turns out to be even more expensive and you also have to have encoding decoders installed in the locos, hence more expensive upgrades. So, I also say FUHGEDDABOUDIT. If your DC setup works well and you are happy with it, I would just stick with it. Also, some older locos are a real pain to install decoders in.
I would suggest you buy a “starter” DCC system like the NCE powercab or Digitrax Zephyr along with a DCC sound engine already to go like an Atlas Gold unit. Other than the engine, you’ll only have to layout a measly 200 bucks or so. That’s nothing. If you don’t like it, sell it on Ebay, or better yet, use if for the train layout around the Christmas tree. My monthly income is less than 9,000 a month, so I’m not rich either like another poster stated, but hey, sometimes you just gotta go for it
And, if you decide to stay with DCC you can always upgrade either DCC system mentioned above.
I have one thing to add about DCC that has not been written yet that I can find. With DCC you can have a cornfield meet that is impossible with DC I think. I believe that would be missing. LOL.
Seriously, DCC is great but only you would need to decide if the cost and work would be worth it. I have been in DCC 5 years but I didn’t have all the locos to convert like you. I believe about 6-8.
Best thing would be to operate a DCC system on a layout to decide if you want to take the plunge.
The benefit of DCC is the ability to run multiple locomotives/trains on the same track at the same time under independent control. Especially useful with multiple engineers operating. On a big layout with lots of blocks and block toggles, where remembering where the toggle switch is that you need to keep the locomotive running becomes a problem, the DCC is nice.
If it’s your layout and you are the sole operator and you remember the location of every toggle switch 'cause you wired each one, then DCC is less compelling.
My new layout is straight DC for the time being. I too have a fair collection of locomotives and the thought of taking each one apart and installing a $30 decoder is a deterrent. I am wiring a two cab block system with the thought that the “other” cab might in the future become a DCC cab.
Well, I’m jumping in again, here. I’ve got very close to 50 brass steamers that I’ve fiddled and tinkered to run very well, and I run them all. But not at ONCE. I have a fairly large (24x24’) one-man layout and being a Lone Wolf, I run it myself. I seldom run two trains at once, because I run my layout in Real Time, and my setting (Sierra Nevada during WWII) seldom would see a train every ten minutes. More like one an hour. I’ve got a loco servicing facilty where I can switch from ‘valley’ to ‘mountain’ power, or just add a helper (and most of my brass locos have been painstakingly geared to run comfortably in tandem). I have a very reilable ControlMaster 20 with the tethered control which allows me to follow my train around the layout, and being an inveterate train-watcher, I’m really pretty happy with the results.
Yup, I’m DC and a Happy Camper. I have nothing against DCC, but for me, DC works! I don’t need to do switching when I’m running a train, and I don’t need to necessarily follow a train around the layout if I do decide to do switching (block control takes care of that pretty well). And if I want to run TWO trains, I’ve reached my limit. I can do so with Block Control, but then there’s only me and this big railroad. I can’t Clone myself, nor do I want to. I pretty much like to concentrate on one thing at a time. But for those for whom DCC works and works well, I say HOORAY! I’m just not one of those guys.
Besides, fitting all of my brass locos with decoders? WHEW! Hey, I’m retired, and on a fairly fixed income, and I’d have to fit all those locos at once, because I NEVER know which lokie I want to drag out of the case and let roll. Again, I’m not anti-DCC, don’t even think it. It’s probably the definite Coming Thing, and after I’m gone, I have a feeling it will take over the MR hobby. I’d just rather
It really comes down to just exactly how you envision running the railroad. If you always oeprate alone, and just run one train - then it may indeed not make sense to go to DCC. You can run one train unencumbered all over the layotu simply my setting all your block toggels to Cab A and using the Cab A throttle - I presume you’ve installed multiple throttle locations with the Controlmaster 20 so you can walk around and follow the train.
Now if you intend at some point to have people over to operate with, once you have 3-5 people running trains around it’s WAY WAY more fun and easy with DCC. Of course, that brings responsibility - with DCC any train can run anywhere - including head on into one coming the other way, or into the back of one stopped to switch an industry. It’s hard to quantify in words, really. You sort of have to experience it. Imagine two locos having a meet at a siding - throw the turnout, one train pulls into the siding, throw the turnout back, and the other train goes on past on the main. No flipping block toggles to assign which cab controls which loco. No sudden train stoppage as you cross a block boundary and forget to swet the block toggle to assign power to your cab. Just follow the train around controlling speed and sirection and paying attention to signals, or the timetable and your train orders.
My first hands on with DCC was at a train show, one of the venders had a simple 22" radius HO loop of track with two locos running on it. I was sold verbally on the concepts way back when I borrowed “THe Complete Book of Model Railroading” from the library as a kid and read the chapters on the GE ASTRAC system. I was like…wow. But that little loop was the first time I actually had a throttle in my hand and could control both locos at the same time - and yes I did manage to run one into the other.
As for a cost estimate, it’s probably not far off.A god portion of the locos brands yo
I too had a complete 20’ by 25’ layout with dual cab control and CM20 throttles. I started building it in 1987 and it ran very well. In the mid 90’s I started ‘playing’ with DCC. By 1997 I was hooked and had a Digitrax Chief command station. The big issue was converting all of those Athearn/Atlas custom painted diesels. I had about 100+ engines from as far back as 1964. After really considering the entire roster, I realized that my railroad only operated with about 18 ‘good’ engines. The rest were in boxes or in display shelves, and run ‘once in a while’. Now, this was back in the day of $40 decoders as well! Once I started the convesions, Digitrax came out with low cost ‘fleet’ decoders and that became the standard. I have since sold off most of the ‘show’ fleet and all of the ‘operating’ roster of engines. New P2K GP9’s and SD7’s, as well as Atlas/Kato/BLI engines replacedthem(as did better freight cars) over the years.
Once the engine situation settled down, I spent a week of vacation pulling over 2200’ of #18 wiring & panels from the layout. I then ‘wired’ the railroad all over again. The big cost here was wire and 3M IDC’s. About $200 was spent that week. Here is the break down over about 10 years of DCC.
$500 for decoders for the inital running fleet(about 1-2 hours per Athearn engine)
$600 for DCC Command Station/2 DT100 throttles/UP5 panels and Loconet wiring
$200 for the ‘re-wire’ of the layout(not really needed)
$1300 - Total Cost
Since then, I have added wireless(UR91, converted DT100’s to DT100R and buy 2 DT400R throttles), and added ‘sound’ engines(7). I have also converted about 25 more engines.
If I was going to convert to DCC ‘today’, it would be a lot more inexpens
I too am 60+ retired on pension, been modeling for 35 years or so, I was always DC. When I retired I wanted to change the way I operated. I dove into DCC full hog , I don’t do sound because my hearing is so bad sound is a lost cause. But what is nice is running an SP freight on my outer line , a local on my inner loop and working the yards at the same time, (some times actually running two switchers in the yards at the same time ! ). No I haven’t converted all my units and probably never will, so I’m converting my favorites and the rest are display shelf queens. DCC wasn’t that hard to get used to. I will admit , using decoder pro hooked to my NCE power pro makes it easy, I don’t have to learn all the CV stuff you hear about , power pro does all the thinking for you. Nuff outta me
Mobilman44,
DC analog can cause just as many headaches as any DCC system, it’s all in what you know. I operated for 8 years on a 1953-era club layout (with a 1978 extension) that used cab block control. There were 8 mainline cabs, 12 yard cabs, 2 local freight cabs, 2 trolley cabs, and 1 narrow gauge cab for a 2500 sq. ft. layout. Each mainline cab had some 50+ block toggles. In fact, here’s a pic of our old Cab #7 (blt. 1978):
Each toggle had a light above it that indicated when it was in use. Due to that and the rest, here’s a pic of the back of the same cab:
The wires are all cut because this cab was removed in 1998 and is in storage at our new club where this pic was taken.
The above two pics are the primary reason why we went with DCC on our new layout 6300 sq. ft. layout, that and our decades of experience running our DC analog layout. We had to worry about mystery floating blocks, shot relays, dirty toggles, blown lightbulbs, bad pots (throttles), and troublesome reversing blocks. And that’s not even counting the number of times we heard “Who’s got my train?” during every operation.
While DCC eliminated all of that, it of course has it’s own “issues”. While annoying, these aren’t generally as crippling as a DC “issue”. The most common problem with DCC is with the decoders and getting them programmed. At worst
While DCC is nice the start up cost is the real eye opener.IF I was to convert ALL of my HO locomotive fleet to DCC it will be close to $1200.00 for decoders plus $79.95 for the UT4 Throttle-IF I wanted to replace my trusty UT2 throttle…I am lucky…I don’t have a home layout but,one of the clubs I am a member of is DCC and only a select few locomotives been converted to DCC.Total cost around $450.00 for decoders.
Now then…My N Scale home layout will be DCC but,only 4 locomotives will be equipped.Why 4? That’s all my short line uses and to since this will be very basic DCC operation I will use Bachmann’s E-Z DCC system.Total cost around $200.00.
Probably very little. You have been steadfast in the hobby for many years and still enjoy it within your parameters.
My experience began with DC lasting about two years, and then I returned to the hobby after about 45 years. I essentially began again, after a short bit in DC, with a BLI engine that had a QSI decoder. I was hooked. Later, with a Super Empire Builder, I found that I needed no blocks, relays, no toggles. I could make two engines couple at their pilots on the same contiguous section of track.
As others have described it, I can play trains, and not have to play “work the electricals”.
I’m a recent convert to DCC. I was a DC hold out of a long time. It wasn’t just the expense. I took pride in my ability to design and build, not just the layout, but the two cab electrical system that ran it. Designing and installing my control panels was as much fun and as important to me as designing my yard or engine terminal.
In the early stages of building my current layout, I decided to give DCC a try.
I have 45 feet (approx) of mainline track installed and I am, quite literally, running it all with just 2 wires from my power pack to the rails. I am currently using two Athearn MP15ACs for motive power. I bought the DC models and added the decoders myself - a 5 to 10 minute operation as the MPs already had a circuit board that would accept the decoder.
I also hardwired a old Blue Box SW-1500 - it took me about an hour to make all the connections, but I recently discovered that digitrax makes an adapter kit for the old Ahtearns. That would save some time.
I would say “go for it”! You’ll never be sorry you did (IMHO).
That is actually an argument in favor of DCC. Wiring DCC is so much easier than all the DC block stuff.
Sounds like you are making it much harder than it is. DCC is easy. The problems you read about on the forums are the exceptions not the rule. A lot of the talk of power bus, DCC friendly turnouts etc. are mostly mountains out of mole hills scenarios.
I don’t know why everyone thinks they have to convert all their locomotive to DCC all at one time. Just replace one of your Control Master 20s with a DCC command unit, flip all the block controllers to that cab and “ta da” DCC layout. When you want ot run the DC units just flip all the block controllers to the other Control Master 20. In fact you could cut in a DPDT switch between the Control Master 20 and a DCC unit and have everything you’ve got today PLUS DCC. I’ve been using command control for almost 30 years now and still don’t have my whole fleet converted.
How to connect DCC - run two wires from DCC unit to track. done. Installing de
Why is it in storage? Somebody planning to recycle the toggle switches? If I had to contend with something like that I’d go to DCC in a heartbeat!
Since I am operating my layout and you aren’t, I find your statement more than a bit presumptuous. Note that I did not say, “Animate my layout.” I have a, ‘Fire and forget,’ capability - start a train, get it up to speed, then turn it loose. When it reaches the point where it’s supposed to stop, it encounters a series of speed reducing sub-blocks before running onto dead rail. That’s where the cheap resistors and diodes come in.
I use a modified form of (the late) Ed Ravenscroft’s MZL system - which is very user friendly in operation. As a result, I can single-handedly - well, two-handedly, both hands being mine - operate a very dense schedule while handling
