rexhea:
How much heat will incandescent lighting with halogens produce?
As a note, if you use electronic FL ballasts instead of magnetic ballasts, the flicker will not be noticable (to humans). Electronic ballast usually supply AC in the 20Khz range instead of 60hz like magnetic ballasts.
In terms of efficiency, any FL lamp will be more efficient than any incandescant lamp. As such, you will get more light for less watts out of FL verses incandscent. Example, you can get a 15 watt PC lamp that outputs the same amount of light was a 70 watt incandscent lamp. When you have 10 or 15 lamps, that’s a lot more light for a lot less energy (= $$) Plus, you can choose your color temperature to a certain extent. Again, 5500K is daylight, 4500K is “warm” and 6500K is “cool”.
-Tom
For the heating effects of lights, the rules are all the sam regardless of the type of light, being incandescent, flourescents, halogen, etc.
Heat output = watts input
If you put in 250 watts of lights, you’ll get about 250 watts of heat. The vast majority of the energy does NOT produce light, even in the most energy efficient lights.
Incandescents are MUCH worse than flourescents. You’d have to put in 1000 watts of incandescents to equal 250 watts in flourescents.
Halogen lights are higher efficiency incandescents, but not as efficient as flourescents. They’re hotter, smaller, allow you to better direct the light, and give better color rendition. They also cost more.
My philosophy is to put in the best lighting that you can afford. Overkill it, and make it controllable so you can dim it down as needed. When doing detailed work you’ll need the bright light. When operating you probably don’t need as much light as when you’re working on the layout. Maybe be able to either dim the lights or selectively turn off a few of them.
Track lights on a dimmer for operations, plus some big ugly flourescents on seperate switches for additional lighting when working on it would be a good mix.
Mark in Utah
As I recall Joe actually lost an operating session when the heat of a Halogen lamp melted the ties on some switch work on his layout. In defense of the halogens I believe he was doing some filming and the lamps were in much closer proximity than you would normally use in layout lighting.
Three other things, I like the idea of the mini/screw in flourescents aas I have used them in lamps around the house for energy saving and like them in that application. Second, the fixtures you posted of the flourescent fixtures with the plastic defuser might be advantageous, as the defuser may give you UV screening to prevent color fading. Third, the track lights you posted are the larger sized units, and would probably work well for you. My preference is for spot type of lamps in these type of fixtures to put more intense/focused lighting on the subject rather than flood type lamps. However there are smaller track light fixtures available here where we have 110 volt systems, and you may also find some “low voltage” type of smaller track lights as well. I also prefer reflector lamps as they push all the light out of the fixture instead of having it illuminate the inside of the fixture thus getting wasted.
Good luck in your “hunt” for the best way of getting the “dark sucked” out of the layout room.
Will
You actually have a couple of basic approaches, depending on what you are trying to do.
If you are trying to simply light a room well that has the layout in it, that’s one thing. But if you are up for installing more sophisticated “display” lighting, that’s entirely another.
For a “lighting the room only” approach, then some sort of full spectrum florescent fixtures on the ceiling would be sufficient. However, dimming the lights won’t really be an option in that case unless you want to spend the big bucks.
For a “display lighting” approach where you want to emphasize the layout and make it look its best (almost a museum quality), then porcelain fixtures in a valance give you great flexibility at the lowest price. You can do low wattage incandescents (like I’ve done), use inexpensive low wattage florescent bulbs of your desired light color, or go with the more expensive dimmable florescents (refer to my previous post).
IMO, using track lighting or tube florescents for display lighting limits your options and/or costs you more, with little benefit over standard screw-in fixtures.
Right now my layout is lit with my general room lighting (when I start on the second deck, I’ll install the layout lighting)., for which I use Philips Natural sunlight bulbs. The T12 style have a color rendition index of 92, meaning the bulbs produce a very broad spectrum, and the quality of the light allows you to discern small differences in shading and tone of very similar colors (two close reds, for example). From my research, any bulb with a CRI over about 85 provides very good color difference distinction to the human eye.
I plan to use smaller bersions of these bulbs for my layout laighting, when that installation begins.
Mark:
It is also true that room level lighting won’t work on a multideck layout design – you have to adopt some sort of valance display lighting if you don’t want the lower deck to be a dark and shadowy cavity.
In order to have consistent look on both decks, I installed a valance with the same porcelain sockets and bulbs on both decks.
Electro,
Heat from standard incandescent lights that can be used in track lighting is no different than those in your reading lamp, watt to watt. However, you will notice a significant difference with the use of halogen bulbs, but not to the point of making the room uncomfortable if you have average ventilation by air conditioning. Again, I use halogen over the standard because you get more lumens per watt of power and I use track lighting so I can adjust and move the lighting effects as I see fit to do so.
As all ready stated, a fluorescent bulb tops the lumens per watt of power with a halogen second, if this is a critical issue. FL is also the cheapest way to go. Halogen will produce a more life-like lighting effect and can be directed to emphasise a certain layout area more than another. With FL you will flood the entire area with the same amount of light on each area and is not life-like even with “daylight” bulbs. (Proof of this is when you go buy a shirt at a clothing store that has these bulbs and go out in the sun and realize that it is not the color you thought it was.)
I would suggest that you visit a local lighting store and make comparisons of all the options given to you in this thread. Someone mentioned that a combination may be the way to go. This will allow you to emphasize special (bragging) areas of your layout with track lighting, while giving you a broad coverage of light in the room with fluorescent.
It really comes down to what you have heard many times on this forum." …do what will satisfy you." and “What works for me may not work for you.” [;)]
REX[:)]
You have to have lights.
ICMR
You also need plug-ins.
ICMR
Thanks, Joe, I’ve already planned for the valence lighting in my design.
Right now the plan is to use the same type of fluorescent for each deck as I use for room lighting - just a different style. I’m not hard set on that, though - the inability to dim the fluorescents is a big concern. Day will shift suddenly into night - no transitional period.
On the other hand theres a big advantage to having the same room lights as I’ll have on the layout - anything I do on the lower deck won’t “colorshift” when I add the valence lighting.
WOW, this was not easy. I appreciate all nice answers. I think I must read these posts many times before I know what to do.
At the moment I don’t know at all what’s the best for my layout.[sigh] [zzz]
I just looked at a Swedish model railroad forum. And they talked about fluorescent lighting. Philips have a lamp called Tld 950, and it’s color temp is 5000k, and a excellent colour rendering index (>95) Please tell me more about this lamp, is it good or bad? It sounds good to me, but everything does [:D] You can read more about this lamp here:
Can’t enlarge it enough to read it, EL.
electro:
Depends on the price … if you would be paying more than about $2 per bulb, they are overpriced. For general room lighting, a CRI 50 or more is sufficient. The 5000K temperature will be bluer than incandescent lighting, but warmer (more yellow) than daylight.
Here’s a link with some good basic info:
http://www.homedepot.com/HDUS/EN_US/energy/en_learn_fluorbulbs.html
Please note that 4 x 4 metres is a little more than 12 feet by 12 feet, not 9 x 9. So more lighting is needed than some readers may have thought.
Architectural track lights are out of the question. They require very heavy wiring because it is easy to plug in too many lights per foot. The code calls for a 20 amp feeder per 12 feet of track.
The positioning of your light fixtures depends on the track plan. For a sane effect, you want directional lighting arranged so that the shadows fall in the same direction according to your conception of “south” everywhere on the layout. The cheapest way to do this is probably to buy photo flood reflectors–the kind with the rubber clamps-- and clamp these to the ceiling joists (or wood blocks nailed in place) so you can position the lights the way you want.
Buy as many as you can afford and install lower wattages per reflector. Sixteen 11-watt CFs are much nicer than, say, four 60-watt units. Use compact fluorescents. The light is acceptable and they are much cooler than incandescents.
If you are not sure what you are doing with the wiring, PLEASE HIRE AN ELECTRICIAN. Have that technician install an outlet circuit for all your lights around the edges of the ceiling. It’s always good to have a 20-amp outlet circuit around the walls near the floor, as well, for plugging in tools and electronics. Please do this right. Failing to do so is a false economy, especially if you wake to the smell of smoke and have to flee with the clothes on your back one night!
–the real david
Again, another topic where “what’s good to you” seems to be the central truth.
I like the Philips 5000K 48" T-12 fluorescents for their 92 percent color rendering.
Home Depot sells them locally for $6.00, which doesn’t meet Joe Fugate’s cost
criteria. Philips calls them “Natural Sunshine.”
But as it says on the box they come in: Color scale: “Color is a personal preference.
Select a bulb that creates the mood you desire to have in the room.” And: Color rendering: “A higher number (percent of 100) can make a big difference…you will
be able to distinguish between similar colors.” Right now I have four hanging over
a 5 X 9 island layout. I plan to use them behind a valance for the planned " around
the basement" layout. We first tried these in the kitchen above the cabinets in front
of a blue that is very much like “layout backdrop blue,” so I thought they would be
good above the layout. Mine are mounted in basic two tube shop lights, the cheapest
that Lowe’s sells. I think the “fancy” fixtures in your picture are too expensive, and reduce the amount of lumens hitting the layout. When I do the big layout, I may add
some screw in incandescents, so that I can dim to darkness. (Thinking the more
yellow color of incandescents will simulate sunset.)
Again pick what looks good to you. I had previously tried a short strip of track lighting
with halogen bulbs, but quickly realized that it would be cost prohibitive over a layout,
and like therealdavid says, require an enormous investment in electric circuitry to meet
code.
To properly light a railroad, one needs television-style lighting to eliminate most shadows and soften the effect. The basics:
There are four different kinds of television light: Spotlight, sidelight, backlight, and kicker.
Best for spot and side lights are track lights with vanes for directing the light (I’ve seen people use large tin cans for the vanes with appropriate cutouts and baffles in them). Side lighting is essential for removing the harsh effect of a spot. The track needs to be located back from the layout, not over it, but not so far back that observers will cut the light while admiring your work. One way to hide the baffles around these track lights is to install a drop ceiling and recess the tracks (if you try this, maximum wattage of any single bulb should be 60 or 75 if properly shielded).
Back lights and kickers can be made from strings of Christmas-tree bulbs if they are strung behind a valence. You will need strings of red, yellow, blue, and white lights, each on separate dimmer controls for setting time of day (blue for night, add red then yellow for morning/afternoon, and whites for mid-day) – contrary to what some might think, good night scenes are not accomplished with lights off. These lights should be strung so that the differently colored bulbs are all mixed up (do not put all of the blues or all of the reds together).
For brightest day, you also should include some fluorescents, and the precise placement of the fluorescents vis-a-vis the incandescents is critical for mimicking the realism of outdoors (this can be accomplished only by experiment). For a guide to proper placement, visit a museum featuring quality dioramas, e.g. Yale’s Peabody, and simply look under the valence to see how the lights are arranged.
Do use your lights to lead viewers’ eyes to important areas of the layout you wi***o emphasize – in some respects, this aspect of lighting is more important than getting the perfect light balance.
The thing to look for in lighting is the color rendering index (CRI) of the lamp. The highest number is 100 which is the measure of sunlight. The closer you get to this number, the closer the lamp is to the color of sunlight. Flourescent lighting has the best color rendering, lumen per watt output and lumen maintance of any affordable lamp. (Lumen maintance is a measure of how much light the lamp provides over it’s life. All lamps put out less lumens the older they get.)
Flourescent lights can be dimmed. To do so does not require a special dimmer. It does require a special dimmable ballast. Dimmable ballasts are more expensive than standard ballasts, but not astromically so. It is certainly still affordable.
Flourescent lights also put out less heat. I have been in many layout rooms that got very hot because the layout was lit with incandescent lighting. The heat from incandescents may seem bearable when you are alone, but host an operating session and the temperature quickly rises.
~Joshua
What are Dimmable ballasts? I don’t understand.