Including "tracks elements" in your plan- An answer to design a layout plan

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

Hi,

Reading the post on the forum, I see a lot of us planning new railroads, small or great that’s not the question.

Not all of us are professionnal “plan designer”, including myself; it’s probably one of the reason of so much planning questions on the forum.

I am in the way to plan the construction of a big Nscale layout whith some operational possibilities and beleive me it’s not easy if you want to be coherant and be sure the whole thing will work.

My challenge is an Appalachian line running throught the hills and crossing some towns and coalfield whith some exchange.

I know what kind of run I want for my mainline, but when it’s come to design it especialy in the town and around the mine, things don’t go very well.

I read, I think, everything on the subject, all the Kalmbach planning book, Internet map sites, blue print of railroad historical societies and take a look at all the layout plan I see. I visit all the model railroad plan design site and I also took pics from the real things.

These give me a lot of inspiration but not always a good working plan.

So I added the “tracks elements” on my planning work.( Excuse my for the nickname coming from a well know plan designer).

The idea is to include copy, or a very close one, of a good arrangement of track I find in all the plan ressources. You are attracted by some track arrangements, so use them!

By example my yard design, is largely inspired from a Santa Fe plan published in the folder of MRP two years ago by Mister Sperandeo. I didnt’ come trought a good yard design until I find this plan.

Some track where modified and I also join a small steam facility. The ladder offer more track than the original design but it’s the Santa Fe design.

One of the

2

hi Marc

Probably all designers nick elements from the the great outdoors and the great indoors we love. Andy Sperandeo wrote a book about yard design, so you picked the right one.

To get every thing working is a far more difficult issue. You just have to know what you really want; and most “would be” planners don’t have a clue or are pretty vague. I would like to do some running and some switching and please give me layout ideas, is written many times. You hijacked another thread; never-the-less the footprint I saw was impressive.

You could describe your druthers in far more and precise detail however. You could start with Tony Koester’s Coalfork Extension; have a branch down the hill to Thurmond where a connection with the C&O is made. At the very end of the main you could build Newport News and Bernard Kempinski’s Brooke Avenue Yard in Norfolk. Doing so would mean you can’t have a footprint like yours; it is too generic. And these names above do ring bells in my head; but not necessarily so in yours.

I would like to see you posting the plan you have, with the LDE’s you’ve incorporated. Not just some bench work outlines.

BTW often studying the prototype starts my hard-disc running fast. I had to learn to look at smaller sites; as I found out even in bigger city’s like Hamburg, Vienna and Amsterdam there are quite model-able elements. Stringing them together into a well operating layout is the next job. Inspiration first; the hard work comes later.

QUOTE:

“I have some lack in track design and here in Europe design of track plan is not " a great cup of tea”

My own track plan had often turned to a nightmare, I greatly admit it.

“Tracks elements” had been often my answer to this lack and poor inspiration about track design."

END OF QUOTE

Some Europeans are almost&nb

3

Hi Marc,

designing a layout is not only quite a task, but it is certainly influenced by what I´d call a cultural issue. I don´t know, who said “You model what you see at your doorstep”, but it is quite true. European train operation is very much different from US or Canadian operation. We focus on passenger trains, because that is, what we see at our train stations. When we go train spotting, we see highspeed trains, followed by a long container train. This is what we model, a train station, a double mainline winding around our “4 by 8´s”, and maybe a branchline, with a train shuttling back and forth from the main station on our layouts.

US operation focusses on freight train operation, with a lot of switching and spotting of cars at local industries - something we can hardly observe in Europe anymore.

Without that background, how can we develop a working layout design for our US outline layout? Yeah, read one or more of those excellent books our host here publishes. It helped me, but less than I thought it would - too theoretical, too difficult to convert the ideas into the little space I have available. The only way for me to come up with designs which I think will be rewarding, was by “nicking” ideas from the “experts”, mixing them with my own thoughts. Not a bad or a wrong way, if you give credit to the original source.

Paul, now that you mention it, I find truly astonishing that it is mainly the “European” party in here, who is offering active help to the newbies and take their time to sketch up track plans.

Smile!

4

Sometimes those same challenges exist stateside.

CR&T in circa 1956 means catching “design elements” from when I was age 6 when passenger service was still a big deal. Interurban traction was also on the way out in favor of diesel bus, and a decade of electrical trolley bus service.

Passenger service 1956 is not the passenger service of today, and quite frankly, freight service has graduated to a much “blander reality” with a smaller variety of motive power and freight cars.

So, we haven’t seen the passenger trains here except for a daily pass-thru Amtrak “Pennsylvanian” at our PRR legacy-station on a smaller Norfolk & Western 3-track mainline – not the same as the Broadway Limited.

While N Scale does lend 45% more to operations – 2 thoughts have helped easing into more effective “elements planning” including:

[1] Treating all destinations as neighborhoods, or communities, not as larger cities – Getting rid of the old perception that we must somehow model “the whole thing” instead of concentrating on railroad & industry elements at the edge of town.

[2] A “shelf-layout planning attitude” geared to layout-vignettes has replaced thinking in terms of “table-top layouts” that gets one to stray from the needed railroading mission at hand.

5

I think tgindy is hitting closest to the target.

The railroad I model included a huge port in a major city. As much as I’d love to include it in my plan, there’s no practical way to do it. It also traversed a beautifully scenic river valley, spearing through tunnels and flying across bridges. No room for that either.

So I capture vignettes. I have a basically simple track plan that loops around the room, but along the way I borrow from signature scenes. This helps the visitor understand where they are, and clearly identifies the “Star of the Show”.

The simplest way I can describe it, is I work backward from the available space. I work out a basic plan that fits the room I have, then look for ways to make that plan resemble my prototype, either in terms of operation, or in terms of aesthetics.

I can’t say I’ve perfected the process, but I can say I’m getting close to what I’m looking for by following it.

Lee

6

Hi,

tgindy called it vignettes, I said I had to learn to look at small elements; all our prototypes are way to huge.

My prototype also included a huge port and a major city and there is a way to include it in a plan. The huge port is not build overnight and has parts from different era’s and often/always quite model-able small sites can be found.

This is the tricky part, when you define your bench work first you will find the signature scenes won’t fit. So finding ways to bend the bench-work or the prototype is what I called the hard work.

The grey lines are roads.

In the Sanborn maps SteinJr found a plan of Chillicothe. The main yards, engine terminal, depot and the crossing with the N&W were signature scenes but way to huge. My signature scene became the couple of blocks north of the crossing with a junction to some spurs along River Drive. Fitting it in a bigger scheme still has to be done.

Paul

7

Hi again,

Let me explain you, how I have drawn the mainline on my new plan.

First, I have sketched the future room .

Second, the future “table” of the layout where draw in, whith all the aiselways.

The mainline must now follow the table, I do that way because I want a very long run mainline whith a along the walls design and a peninsula in the middle of the room. Following the design of the table oblige the design of track to be confined in some restricted space, so you must draw something which don’t overhelm the aviable space even the layout is huge.

Existing part of the layout where included in the “table” drawn.

I sketched a possible run of the mainline all around the table.

On some locations I draw bubbles; these bubbles are the future site of a village or an industry.

Following my train plan ressources, or rarely my inspiration, I incorporated in the bubbles the “Track Elements”.

Some "elements"of the track where in place like my actual port, the yard and basic design of the Corinnesburgh town track.

Every time I put a new “Track elements” on the plan, the mainline design is affined to connect all these elements, including, grade, curves, tunnels, view block. Some scenery countours are also prepared.

Of course all the towns, industry will be, like you say, vignettes. Appalachian scenery mean a lot of vertical scenery, whith hills which could serve as divider and tunnels which could isolate these vignettes.

Now because a secondary line is issued from my yard, the one I call the river route, I need to include her bubbles track elements here in there whithout putting to much track and structures in the same scene.

I can’t publish the whole track plan bec

8

Hi Marc,

The lowest drawing was my starting point. On a small layout like this I also divided the possible spots for passing sidings into two parts. Nine vignettes were the result. All tricks were applied to separate the scenes, rivers, roads, hills, tunnels, trees, buildings and a double-sided back-drop…

And while some scenes or vignettes remained rather empty (track-wise), I tried to concentrate the tracks in just a couple of dedicated scenes.

On a layout likes yours dividing a plan in so many small vignettes will not be a major design issue.

Paul

9

Hi Paul,

I agree whith you, but if I show you my plan the bubbles are not sided by to by, I try to keep a minimum of 2 meters between town or village.

Because the whole scenery is Appalachian, many of these vignettes will be hidden between the hills and only two or three towns will be in the "medium"size town, the rest are just mine whith a small camp or just a few houses to simulate an around the hill village.

The mainline will follow his run from my port throught the scenery crossing here and there some towns or village and reach a second good sized town at the end before coming back.

Exchanges are also planified along the way like local and branch meet.

Thanks for your answer, and yes it’s outstanding to see so much European answers about planning.

I include the only scanned first sketches of the general arrangements of the “table” and the peninsula in the room.

Marc

10

Marc,

Like several replies have noted, there are some ‘basics’ most of us want, and these are influenced many times by our younger years when we ‘discovered’ railroads: I was born in 1949(I am now 60?) and I can just remember steam operation in the US. I still remember ice cold days in Iowa with IC steam, and Northern Minnesota vacations watching those massive DM&IR ‘Yellowstones’ pulling endless ore trains.

I really got into ‘scale’ HO modeling when I was 12 or 13 - and I watched CGW and MILW trains out on secondary lines and branches. What do I model? MILW branchline trains in 1959! Here are my thoughts:

  • LDE - LDE’s are a great way to assemble what you want to model when you get the time/money/space to build a layout. One of the problems I have seen with folks as they struggle with LDE is is that they try to put the entire town into a track plan. Many time the ‘action’ is at a certain industry or interchange/crossing. Trying to model all the rest of the town just makes the layout design process harder.

  • Modular/Fremo/Domino - I suspect many times the idea of being able to ‘save’ an LDE or entire layout and re-use it due to a move sounds pretty good. What I have found in practice is that tracking planning can be more limited by modules/sections, and what you built will never seem to ‘fit’ in you hew layout area. I have been luck; the layout was started in 1987, and is still here! It is ‘bolted’ to the house and is not designed to be salvaged. If I build a new layout, it will be ‘all new’.

  • Operation - Build the layout so ‘you’ can operate a ‘feature’ job ‘on stage’. That is; you start at a terminal and work a local out to a town and return. This will give you a sense of ‘job completion’. The ‘rest’ of the layout can

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Thanks for sharing that Paul. I hadn’t thought about it but that is the way that I’m approaching my first permanent layout. The “bubbles” are on a list right now. I actually probably have more bubbles than practical space but we all have to make compromises in our planning. My layout will be an around the room shelf layout so part of the fun right now is moving the bubbles around until the plan makes the most sense and yet accommodates a couple design restrictions in my layout where I need to have two liftouts. In various discussions of track planning there is always reference to givens and druthers and at least some of those turn into the bubbles that you are describing.

12

Hi Marc,

what I am missing in your design is not yet the bubbles; but a solid idea about the mainline.

Where do you have staging, and how? (loops, stub ended yards or tracks on a lap-connection) Where are branches running and are there more ( and smaller) classification yards near junctions?

In the design for Sora, in a pre- bubble stage, it was clear which area’s he wanted to include.

The harbour yard scene was nicked from Russel Schoof’s Free Haven Terminal and should represent Newport News (VA), near Norfolk. The Virginia area could include Thurmond (WVA,C&O) and the Loup Creek Branch. And finally after a generic small town USA the main would terminate somewhere in the outskirts of Columbus (OH).

If I remember well I have seen you constructing a massive yard; not without knowing the answers on the questions above, I presume.

In regard to the size of your empire you will be able to host a 20-men crew. Yard operations can easily become the trouble spot on a layout. I am just curious about the design you still have hidden for us.

I am not a great lover of most of the designs by Ian Rice, a bit track-heavy and too cute to my taste. You can find the plan of Jan Schoof’s harbour and the plan by a French group on the weblog of Byron Henderson(Cuyama).

http://mrsvc.blogspot.com/search/label/Inspirational%20Layouts

Also take a look at Byron’s own ABL harbour design. Did you see Paul Dolkos’ Baltimore scenes in Model Railroad Planning? These are the kind of ports I like.

Paul

BTW are you still look

13

So, why do I not offer layout suggestions when such questions are asked on the forums? Hmmmm! I guess the main reason is that I don’t feel qualified. Other reasons also come into play: a lack of information as to the goal of the layout, grades, scenery and building plans, space limitations, rolling stock and motive power plans, etc.

Just about everyone has indicated that selective compression is necessary, and I agree. We would each need a warehouse and a seven figure income if we wanted to model every aspect of our era, prototype or industrial concept. For the most of us, some elements must be left off the plan simply because of space limitations and the resulting engineering problems that limited space creates.

Looking at plans can be deceiving and can also be very time consuming. I like to look at what others are doing/planning, but to offer comment, except in very specifice areas where I have some knowledge, is beyond what I think I can do. If a passing siding is essential to your overall plann, then figure out a way to put one in. Likewise for hidden staging or layover.

Because of my limited space, 10’ x 7’ that must also incorporate a desk and computer, a door and a closet, I opted to forgoe a passing siding. Even hidden staging was a concern until a friend suggested that I run line around the room from an upper shelf. I am modelling a logging and mining setting, with switchbacks and 5% and 6% grades, so having my staging on a dead end branch works out perfectly. I have a functioning yard at each end on the main loop, 1% grade, with the branch to the upper level coming off the main. Scene blocks will be used to separate the yards from the loop. One yard will also be used for the connection to the outside world and thus rolling stock rotation.

Anyway, enough of a ramble. We can each solve our layout concerns with time. Often we must put track down to see if an idea is actua

14

Hi Paul,

As I mentionned before I will publish a general sketches of the two mainline, the hills run and the river run, but because I drawn the plan by hand on a roll of plan paper in a 50% scale it’s difficult, You could understand, to scan it…

So I am in the way to make a smaller general sketche of the two main run which could be easily published; unfortunately I didn’t use a CAd or soft program planning tools, but the old pencil.

Here a re a few answer to the above questions.

  1. I try to not use hidden staging yard; I prefer to use open one and find it possible because of the size of the layout.

  2. River run:The line start at my port go under the town, throught the big yard, split train here or go throught, went to several small towns and industries, reach a second medium town whith a small yard which split trains for more longer industrial track, here a secondary small line is going in the hills. The line continues his way along the river to reach a last town, where there is another small yard and a return loop, there is also a branch connected here. Most of the trains are peddler coming along this single track which use several long sidings to meet trains. Train are coming back to yard, splited here to go to the hills runor to port where there is a lot of industry and a medium sized yard ( already finished) or throught Corinnesburgh join the hills run; this act like an exchange at this point.

3.Hills run: the train are starting at yard, most of them are hooper run but mixed too and some passengers. They go up in a tunnel, go throught Corinnesburgh and r

15

Marc,

If you have a digital camera and a tripod you could photograph it. Many (most?) tripods will even allow you to pull the head assembly out and insert it up through the bottom (upside down) which facilitates this type of use. And if you have a little more sophisticated camera, you may be able to connect it directly to your computer via USB (or firewire) and get the images “live” from the camera and skip the “picture taking” step. Just capture the image directly on your computer-- or else some cameras permit you to “take the picture” directly to your hard drive. In any case, once you get it set up and focused, then its a simple matter of figuring out how much your camera can photograph in one go and then moving along the roll in those increments.

I’ve done that sort of thing often to get large documents “scanned” into the computer.

Hope this helps!

john