Increase amps to track?

Model Railroader Electronics and DCC
1

Hello,

I am talking about DC here.

I would like to run two trains in the same block section.

My current powr supply puts out 2 amps, one train runs fine with no problems but when a second train enters the block, trains stop and\or running becomes erratic.

I would like to implement this unit…see emage
http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad200/gmckenzie444cplmckenzie/Pwrspply_zpswh1mhxey.jpg

and an ac to dc rectifer. Or is this unit already designed to output DC?

So my question would be, since this ac power supply puts out at 3-4 amps, with the rectifer converting to DC, would this increase the amps to the track when a second train enters the block.

Please note…I am just guessing here. Looking for a way to increase amps to tracks. Any other suggestions are appreciated.

If what I am considering is doable. Can someone suggest a specific rectifer and a forward and reverse throttle that I can use.

Thanks,
cplmckenzie

2

The unit pictured is a DC power supply so you don’t need a rectifier bridge. It will supply as many amps as it is rated (3 amps). How many amps do your locos draw?

Joe

3

You need to explain this a little better. Two trains in one block is not usually compatible with DC operation.

4

I bought the very same, maybe a bit higher amperage, DC power supply. It was rated at 10 amps, 12 amps max.

When I put a 2.5 amp load on it the breaker tripped. Amazon refunded all my money and told me to keep the unit.

I now use it as my Tortoise supply.

https://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-PS12KX-13-8-Volt-Power-Supply/dp/B0002JTD1Q/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1466116017&sr=8-4&keywords=pyramid+dc+power+supply

I have no idea how it gets four stars. Look elsewhere for a power supply.

It will output constant voltage DC. You still need a way to vary the output to the track.

What IS your present power supply? 2 amps should be plenty. Are you sure the continuity is the same between the blocks? Meaning rail A to rail A all the way around the layout? You may have something crossed that causes a short as one engine enters the block.

A simple DC ammeter will tell you if you need to increase your current (amperage) also any loose connection, too small of wire gauge, loose joiners will exhibit the same symptoms.

Model Rectifier is still a highly respected power pack for DC.

http://www.modelrectifier.com/train-controls/dc-power-tech4.asp

Look for sales or discounts from some of the larger hobby suppliers.

Good Luck, Ed

Regards, Ed

5

I can’t honestly say. I just tried to measure amps with multimeter with train running and the train stopped with reading of 134 on the meter.

How do I determine how many amps?

6

My current power supply is 2 amps. I have measured the amps around the complete oval and the amp reading is the same all the way around. In my case, the oval is setup as a block section with it’s own power supply. Now there is a siding that comes off the oval, runs a distance then enters back onto the oval but that has it’s own power supply also (2 amps).

Therealso is no shorting from oval to siding and back on again.

cplmckenzie

7

how did you make this measurement?

unlike voltage (V), measuring amperage (A) requires putting the meter in series with the circuit. One way is the connect the meter between one side of the supply and the track, positive (+) side of the meter to the (+) side of supply. Some meters use a separate terminal for terminal for amps.

once you’re correctly made these connections with the meter, measure the current with each locomotive separately (each should be < 1A) and then measure with both locos in the same block.

but as carl asked, it’s unconventional to run two locomotives on the same throttle (i.e. same block). Hopefully you’re not connecting two throttles to the same block at the same time. That can cause all sorts of problems.

8

So then, two (2) throttles on one block is bad???

9

yes. Each throttle applies a voltage to the track. If the voltages are different, they fight one another and may short one another out.

normally, the layout is broken into blocks. Each block can be connected to one throttle (and just one throttle). this allows multiple locos to the operated on the layout at the same time, in different blocks, by connecting the blocks occupied by each loco to the throttle controlling it.

this is called cab-control

10

Two issues: You can’t have two throttles controlling the same load. With DC operation you cannot independantly control two trains on the same track. Each train must have its own block controlled by its own throttle. Otherwise things go wrong. Block wiring is usually set up so only one throttle can connect to a block.

Also, when you have two trains on the same section, assuming only one throttle controlling both, and they slow down, that would indicate that you are overloading the power supply and the voltage is dropping.

If you have two throttles on the same block, the current will seek the path of least resistance and that means it will probably flow from one throttle to the other if it can return to the power supply that way.

11

Sorry, that is not quite correct.

Current (power, juice, electricity, or whatever else you wish to call it) will take EVERY path available, not just the least resistant one.

If you have, i.e., 3 paths, one with heavy resistance, one with some resistance, one with zero resistance, you will still measure power at the end of all three paths, not just the one with zero (least) resistance.

Ask any certified electrician, electrical repairman, or electronics repair specialist, and they will confirm this.

Way too many people get injured, or worse, because they trust this untrue myth to be correct, and do something foolish because of it.

Power is not something to mess around with if you do not know what you are doing, or if you are doing it in an unsafe manner, such as believing the myth it only takes one path…

(When more than one path is available, the power available per path is less, therefore it appears that it takes only one path or the other, but in reality it just takes them all, just at differing strengths, depending on how much is used up taking said paths.)

12

You cannot increase the amps to the orack. Only the voltage. The amps drawn will depend on what the motor wants. More voltage, then more amps. Poor connection on the layout will limit voltage and amps. Consider a poor connection like a resistor.

And, one only throttle.

Rich

13

so how did you wire your layout that you could connect 2 throttles to the same block?

14

You asked this question (running two trains independantly in the same block) before and received some misleading answers
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/252459/2818443.aspx#2818443

I am not surprised you are confused. Broadway Lion uses sophisticated methods, above my pay grade, to turn off power to segments of a single block so some trains are stopped and some are moving and none are in danger of collision. The other yes answer seemed to be describing (I was confused too) running two locos at he head and tail of the train, while they are in different blocks.

Only one throttle gets to control one block at a time.
oops I’ve lumped to different quotes in the same block. It doesn’t change my answer.

15

I don;t see where Lion said anything about two trains in the same block. What he described is classic common rail cab control. SPDT centr off switches, only oone throttle is connected to a given block at a time. If you flip the wrong switch and connect 2 cabs to 1 block, unpredictable things can happen.

In the example in that other thread, there is a passing siding. A passing siding would be made up of 4 blocks. The west approach track, including the turnout. The east approach track, including the turnout at that end. The main between the turnouts, and the siding between the turnouts. Let’s assume the train coming from the west will take the siding, and it on throttle 1. The train coming from the east will stay on the main and is controlled with throttle 2. In this case, the west approach and the siding blocks would be switched to throttle 1. The west turnout would be thrown to the siding. The east block and the main between the turnouts would be set to throttle 2, and the east turnout lined to stay on the main. The two trains would apprach each other under independent control, the one from the west going into the siding. If the siding is long enough, you can potentially line the turnouts and flip the block toggles and keep both trains moving, but if you are trying to do this yourself, it is easier to stop the trains once they are clear of the turnouts. Now you flip the west turnout to the main and the east turnout to the siding. The west track gets set to throttle 2, and the east main gets set to throttle 1. Now the train on the siding can proceed eastward, and the train stopped ont he main can proceed westward.

Your best bet for understanding this is one of the OLD Kalmbach wiring books by Linn Westcott. Or the various issues from the 50’s when many of these concepts were developed and printed in the magazine. In Linn’s articles, he drew pictorial diagrams of what he was explaining, showing the switches and all the wires as they are, not in a schematic diagram. D

16

Thanks to you all,

Just wanted to say I appreciate all the responses. They gave me new viewpoints on what I was wanting to do. AAAnnnnnddddd, once again, being new to this, I was trying to do the impossible. Although it is these kinds of question and answer sessions that causes me to dig deeper and that is how I learn.

Since my one crossover, coming off the main oval and back on again, is controlled by a toggle switch I will continue to move inferior trains aff the main and power off until it passes.

I do have to say that this q&a session made me look at the oval layout and wiring in it’s entirety and I saw a way and actually put in a small three track yard for my steam engines. I looked at my trains one day and saw that, somehow, I had aquired 3 steam locos and tenders.

So now I have a second small yard, in addition to my main 8x3.5 ft yard, for Steamers and Shifter locos.

Thanks guys. I appreciate you. I learned a lot this past week.

cplmckenzie

17

Why… LION as a single block and can run 10 trains at one time.

HIM has BIG regulated pwer supply witn 12 Amps output.

Trains of LION operate automatically, but as power is concerned is all one block.

There is no reason why you cannot run two locomotives with that power supply, as in a consist. Why should separate be any different, except of course as for matters of control.

Modern locomotives draw less than one amp, if you have an older locomotive, yes, it could draw two or more amps.

ROAR

18

Yes, the key is CONTROLLING them. You cna make one giant block, put 10 traisn spaced out along it, and let’em fly, works fine. Though technically those resistor stop sections you have at your stations are actually seprate blocks. However, to control the speed of a DC loco, you need to control the voltage ont he tracks. You can;t hook up 2 different rheostats to the same set of rails and control 2 different locos. There are ways with AC and a diode in each loco, and others involving trolleys and live overhead plus the two rails insulated from one another like ordinary 2 rail track. But the diode method makes for noisy and hot motors, and the trolley wire just doesn’t work for steam or diesel locos.

–Randy