I’m overwhelmed, and need some input! I’m getting back into model railroading since we moved into a new house - with a huge, open third floor play area. We have no kids - just nieces and nephews - so I can focus on my hobby with few limits.
That presents with me with a challenge - being the left brained engineer…I’m having problems with the “right side” creative aspects of creating an interesting layout. Having room may be giving me a problem - the options are overwhelming!
So here is what I am thinking - and a draft layout I’ve been playing with. Let me know your inputs or ideas please:
I have 2 4x8 tables end to end, with a 6x8 L extension at the end. So, plenty of room to play.
HO scale with DCC. Currently have two engines - would like to be able to run at least two – maybe up to 4.
Want some interesting scenery areas - mountains, tunnels, etc. So started with a basic loopback design that has two mountainous loops passing near each other for cool view possibilities - and got stuck from there.
There are just two operators here - so we want some longer runs, without a lot of fancing switching. Having said that, as we start to play, we’ll probably get more interested in industry spots, etc.
I have a draft layout - and got overwhelmed / stuck. The black squares are places where the track doesn’t line up exactly in XTrkCad – but figured I could figure that out on the real track, with some flextrak and more straight options (1", 2", etc.) – any suggestions on how to add track sections in XTrkCad so I can play with these options? Or is my “fake it and see” route ok?
Are the tables agains the walls? If so there are places you’ll never reach.
My first impression if it is free standing, is that you are using a lot of space to do so little operations. What is you are trying to accomplish?
For everyone just starting to design a layout, I recommend that you check out Byron Henderson’s questions for clients. He’s a professional layout designer. These help you to know what it is you are looking for.
The biggest problem I see is access to the lower right side of the layout, along the wall. It’s 6 ’ from the edge and there’s no way of working on it without a hatch.
Working on scenery, track, derailments, etc would be very difficult. On that sort of arrangement, you need an aisle all the way around.
It is free standing - so I have aisles on all sides. Should have pointed that out!
I want to add some other operations - you’re right – it’s a lot of space. I’m just not very creative - so ran out of ideas. I’ve looked at lots of sites, played with software, and done some reading. I reached an overload point.
What sort of operations are possible / interesting? Do you mean switching and the likes - or adding things like industry areas, etc.? Some of the lingo is still new to me
If the ouside of the “L” is going to be backed into a corner, you will have major reach concerns. Access is a must in order to enjoy your railroad. Keep your layout near sternum height and your reach to less than 30"…yes, that was LESS THAN 30".
You need some passing tracks, perhaps on some curves? Also, do you have any stagin planned. Two operators will need two trains each in order to have some interest and excitment. Where will your “waiting and already on the road” trains hold up while each of you is managing the loco that you are currently dealing with? Some use a good sized yard for staging, others use hidden staging.
Engine servicing, particularly if you operate even one steamer, is a must both for the sake of holding interest and variety, but also to afford a place to rest unused engines without cluttering your yard or staging. BTW. you say now that you will only have up to 4 engines (snicker)…uh, yeah, right. [:D] Try about 6 by this time next year. I was dead set on two locos, and have long since given up on that little limitation. The secret of building a layout with “legs” is to plan for future considerations…more activity, more rolling stock, more operators, more locos. It’s just the nature of the beast…we being the beast, of course.
Please order the late John Armstrong’s “Track Planning for Realistic Operation” from our hosts here, Kalmbach. First published in '63, it is still the bible, and that good. Once you have thoroughly digested what John had to offer the would-be layout planner, you will be much better off.
You are a very lucky man to have that much space. I do have a few questions about your space and interests.
1)How do you access the room?
2)Are there windows along the walls?
3)How big is too big for you?
It seems like you have the possibility to have one heck of a layout. The biggest problem I see with your plan is that you used 18" radius curves. If you have the room, go big… really big.
Great suggestions. Will work on the passing tracks, staging areas, etc. 30" reach limit will be tough - even with the freestanding, the 6’ across on the L is a bit far. I’ve tested this, and there are dead spots. Will have to figure that one out.
Thanks for the advice! That’s what I’m looking for - learning from the pros! Already learned a lot (started off with 35" height tables…just raised them all to 41" after the fact…that was a pain in the butt!) Also learned I hate flex trak…that not thinking ahead can create dull layouts…or layouts that don’t make sense…or that don’t work!!! Had some funny ones. That’s why, when I added the 6x8’ extension, I got some software to model…and started to ask questions here!
I will go grab the book. Have read a lot on line - sounds like that is the bible to have.
I do have all 18" curves now. I’m already noticing that with my passenger cars, they are a bit tight. I guess with all of my reading, I missed that point early on. I have a lot of $$ tied up in 18" now…I started off with just a 4x8’ layout…but now that I have the space, I should expand. What’s a minimum radious to consider now? 22"?
I’ll field the XTrkCad issue. You drew it entirely with sectional track. That makes connecting ends together a real challenge. I used nothing but flex track in my drawing, the only sectional stuff I used was the turnouts. Anyway, if you use the join two tracks function, it will automatically draw the tracks between the ends for you. For example, in the “L” section on your drawing, the track doesn’t even come close to lineing up. If you were to eliminate all of the straight sections between the 2 curved areas and use the join two tracks funtion, it will draw the remainder in using flex track. You might have to remove small sections of the curve to get the profile you want, but once you get the hang of it, it becomes an easy process.
First to connect the holes in the track. Go to the black dot farthest to the right near the turnout. You might want to change the file name so you can get back to the original if tis does not turn out like you want.
delete the 3 sections of track that make up the curve.
use the Modify or Extend button, the first button on the third group on my computer, to lengthen the bottom of the turnout and the top end of the straight track past where they cross.
select the Join button (next one over from the Extend button) and click on the end of one track near your original trackage then click a hold on the other track, again near the original track. You may get an error message about end points or radius or you will see the tracks form one curve. You can move the pointer in or out to change the radius of the curve. When you get the radius you want release the button and the change becomes permanent.
4.If you got an error message click on the long button n the first group that says Easement. A window will pop up, select NONE and try step 3 again.
I hope that helps. A month ago I gave up on XTrakCad until I got some encouragement here.
Have you considered putting a scenic divider down the center?
Have you considered N scale? Twice the trains in the same area.
There are skylights above the 2 4x8 tables and a window at the lower edge of the L. The room is a bit of an L itself - the longest leg is 40’ x 20’ basically – then the shorter edge is a “lounge” area we have setup that is another 20’ x 20’. I say I’m not limited by space…but for now, will probably stick to the 3 tables I have. We also have a 4’ x 8’ set up with N scale (bought a KEWL Kato Shinkansen when we were in Japan…that’s another project another day…). But, beyond that, we do have a weight set, guest bed setup, lounge area, and we do want SOME room for the nieces and nephews to play. So for now, I’m proabbly limited in what more I can do – plus, to be honest, am overwhelmed enough…and this does cost money, so I have to watch that part. LOL LOL. But evenutally, I’d like to add some wall extensions and perhaps have the train route around most or all of the room. But start small…well, start medium…and grow
Glenn
Thanks for the tip. I guess my question is: I was hoping XTrkCad would guide me to “doable” layouts – so by using the sectional track, I could find out if I was drawing something that would never line up. But, as you point out, the trade-off I found…I can’t get things to line up, so I lose the power of drawing grades, etc. Seemed to me, to be better to “play with track” (reality mode!) online, then build it…but it was harder than I thought.
I’ll try your approach, and just use the sectional track for the hard stuff.
Thanks for the tip. I tried that - and got the track to match up. At first, I had a radius that was too tight (16 deg) - but I deleted some other straights, and played with it - and finally got a 20 deg curve to come in. Now, I still face the question of - I thought the advantage of the program would be to NOT use the flextrax, but to force myself to work with and try defined sectional (saleable Atlas pieces!) so I could make it work. But I will keep working with it. At least now, I know where a 20 degree turn would work…and I’m realizing all of my 18 degree track is too tight. Awww shucks…
Scenic divider - thought about it, but not seriously. Will play with that idea. We saw something like that online, and seemed cool. Where would you draw it on ours?
As for N scale - we have another setup for that coming – a 4x8 table right now with a KEWL Kato Shinkansen from Japan. BUT - the HO is more my style - and right now, I have enough space to play with – am overwhelmed as it is! With N scale, I’d be TWICE as overwhelmed! LOL Plus, my impression is there is more mainstream stuff on the market in HO – so a longer term, more viable option. But we do have both scales…maybe at some point, will put the two together for some (non-realistic!) inter-modal stuff!
Mostly you have to slow down. If you want a good layout, you have to know what you want, and you don’t yet. Figure if you are going to spend $50-$100 per sq ft and put 50 hr/sq ft into the layout, you want something you are not going to be bored with before you finish. Better to take some time in the planning stage and figure out what it is you want. It will save you a lot of money down the road.
Sound advice Hard to swallow…but sound. I guess I need to give this some more thought. Been playing with various options for a couple months now - just added the 6’ x 8’ extension over the holidays…I knew I wanted more than the 2 4x8’s, so figured it was best to do the hard stuff now - fix the height of the tables, add the extension - then come back and have to add it later. Maybe I got ahead of myself…
A few years ago MR did a project layout on the PRR. I thought it was a great project layout. A bit smaller than yours, but worth considering. I believe they put it out in a stand alone book, which I would suggest you get and take a look at. It has just about all the features you’re looking for and it’s almost a step-by-step construction series, with lots of helpful hints.
To answer your question about curves, 18" is the minimum for the pricier, nicer locos, and only then if they have fewer than three near-80" drivers, or four 55" drivers scaled on each side of the loco. Of course, double axled diesels and little switchers will be just fine. However, you will…repeat, WILL, get the bug for heftier traction at some point, and they all came with four large drivers, or more, on one side in the steam series. As a general rule, therefore, your minimums should be 22", and even those will just get you by if you are really careful about laying your track. If you ever have a lust for a PRR J1 (2-10-4), you can kiss your 22" curves good-bye ‘cuz they’re comin’ up.
The point is, grit your teeth, read the books, make a list of gotta have design elements, shoe-horn them into XtrkCAD, and make sure your curves are as wide as humanly possible. If you can manage 28" or even 30" curves for your faster trains on the mains, you have just won a big bonus. Keep the 22" and tighter curves to sidings and yards where the smaller engines do most of the work, and where your big J1 will have to c-r-a-w-l, just like in real life. [8D]
Got the Bible tonight and started reading. WOW - lots of information! But so far, worth its weight in gold. Good thing I don’t go back to work until Tuesday! Lots of time to burn - I mean spend (!) - hobbying!
Thanks so far for all the advice.
Now - I just need to find out what 2-10-4 means (LOL)
When you get tired of reading Armstrong, go to Broadway Limited Imports website and look, under “Products” for their Niagara S1b for a nifty 4-8-4 that needs 22’ minimums, and the mighty PRR J1 that needs 24" minimums. All that, and sound, too! [tup][wow][yeah]
