I am trying to figure out in my poor beleagured cranium–such as that is—how one could repurpose industrial land.
I propose that we have an ideal situation here–the city is quite serious about the land being reused, the scale of the industry is such that it can be achieved without too much issue and we have humans in place that won’t screw something up( I know–how?[(-D]). Oh and we do have a mainline present…
Now, take this little one through the process. What would occur then? Are planners involved? Um—who does one go to for bidding? Who are the bidders?----lots a questions here—
well seeing if a city wants to attract a company they can use state and federal grants to help build a railspur for the new company.That is what Defiance did in their industrial park.The spur sees maybe a car in a month.yeah there are alot more what ifs and after effects too.
There are multiple layers of actions that need to be considered. What actions depend upon the type of industry. What kind of land it is located on, and what town or township. Will it cross public roads? Will it handle HazMat?
Permits, for just about anything is required now a days. If the land is not zoned Industrial, you would need to apply to the proper P&Z and go through hearings and produce evidence. Same goes for crossing a public road. Indeed, in that case, you may need both local and State approval, again with drawings, plans and other evidence.
HazMat is a tangled web of permits, State and Federal applications, and so forth. Site plans, drawings, applications, hearings, depending on the State. If the spur is long enough, some states require drainage plans, site plans, and remediations before you can even apply.
I recall one ethanol plant in Fairmont, MN the process took about a year. Even longer for the plant in Heron Lake, MN becuse they were to burn coal to produce process heat. In these cases, the spur was part and parcel to the whole site, and had to be permitted. Even changes to such facilities requre hearings and more applications and hearings.
If the local or State deems the area “sensitive”, you can count on a lot of red tape. Most small contractors will not touch a project like that.
Another would be to see how one would go about placing a spur line in in a case of mainline being ‘available’ but there being no switch just yet.
Thanks for clearing some of this up guys—I really appreciate the information.
RRKen: How often have you seen urban planners actually involving you RR guys in developing industrial properties? Or is there any effort along that line?
Assuming all of the other issued mentioned have been resolved, it’s a matter of coming to an agreement with the host railroad. Said agreement will involve some cash. How much will depend on what’s involved in cutting in the switch - especially if there are signals involved.
From arms length, my experience has been, they do contact Railroads, and other interested parties well before a plan is in place. You would also be surprised that the RR reads local news and is involved behind the scenes, at times contacting Municipalities before a plan is even concieved.
During the ethanol plant building boom, three roads were courting companies and co-ops to site along their roads. Highly competitive.
A planner (or city engineer) dictating location or geometry of a turnout generally doesn’t happen (unless that individual wants his license revoked by the state board for practicing outside his area of expertise[:-,] )…They have plenty of other opportunities to monkeywrench the process, which has been well documented by Unin Pacific, BNSF and others.)
Planners and developers are well advised to consult with the railroad well before they head down the slippery path regarding rail access. The railroad is under no automatic obligation to build a main track turnout to serve a site based on XYZ developer/city’s wishes. As a for instance, Union Pacific has made it loud and clear to several industrial developers out here that if they build outside the established switching limits near major terminals (like Denver), they won’t create a roadswitcher to serve them and they may not elect to build a mainline switch out in the middle of nowhere. With BNSF, unless you get a Memorandum of Agreement (MOA) from corporate in Ft. Worth (signed off on by marketing, operating, legal and engineering), before you even start design, nothing is going to happen.
From my experience, developers and planners are generally clueless around railroads. You find some exceptions and those folks you happily work for. RWM, Paul North, Steve14 and others on this forum could go on and on about some of the fiascos, fairytales and misconceptions that we have seen.
That would be fascinating reading no doubt!! I’d love to hear from some who seen these weird scenarios—it would certainly help me understand the dynamics thereof.
I’m now wondering along the line of just what would make a good developer better in the sense of working with guys like yourselves then? What kinds of misconceptions exist for example?
I also am wondering about those switching limits. What are the average conditions in these limits? What would they comprise of?
Switching limits (not yard limits) is the general territory assigned to a headquartered switch engine job that usually (not always though) can patrol reasonably in its assigned shift and get the work done…and return to where it was at the beginning of the shift.
FAUX-PAS:
(1) Somewhere at the top of the list is the hypothetical placement of the switch in the main track, what it costs and the signal costs involved. Sticker shock usually kills a project at the getgo. (Costs of what it takes to build a spur knocks the socks off the uninitiated - and the fact of who has to pay for it up front.)
(2) road crossings in public streets baffles people. (Especially the PUC/RRCommission process)
(3) Every Class One, Regional and a good number of shortlines hand out Industry Track Standards like candy at a kids show (most can be found on the web) . When the railroads get the initial design presentation back for review, it’s like they (developer and local consultant) never looked at or read the minimum standard. (I wish I had the red-ink concession). Geometry and grade defects are frightengly common.
(4) PROJECT PLANNING: Why do developers, contractrors, industries, municipal agencies etc. wait to the absolute last minute and then scream bloody murder when their plans that affect the railroad are not rubberstamped and overnighted back to them? (This goes beyond track to include drainage, utility crossings, pipelines etc. - not that uncommon to see utility contractors stalled at the R/W line loooking to go to work when the railroads have not even seen the plans yet.)
Railroad sidings as Mudchicken alluded to can be responsible for some tricky interactions between government entitiesused to having their own way with real estate and railroads.
About two years ago, the City of Parsons (Ks) got a grant to improve a local industrial road from chip and seal to concrete. on the ROW was a former railroad crossing( specifically, the old MKT ROW for the Parsons to Tulsa mainline( it has been unused since approx 1960’s). The rails had been paved over, and still resided across the road, but disconnected from the line. The old main came off of the UP’s mainline south out of town. The tracks still resided on the ROW. Several industries resided on the line, although the service south on the old Katy was sparse and nowhere near regular. about 3/4 mile from the mainline switch UP had installed a bolted-on derail; this left probably a mile and a half of track still down, but a bridge and derth of maintenance left it probably embargoed for traffic.
Anyway the City lets a bid for street work on the aformentioned section of road. The story was that a local contractor was given the salvage of the remaining rails and metal bits and pieces. The local fish wrapper reports the contractor is salivating over how much money will come out of the salvage. Two years later, The line is still down and in place, the derail still in place and the road job is pretty much complete. The road extention that was to occupy the Katy’s ROW never had a shovel turned on it. [X-)]
I think the moral of the story is it will take as much effort to get a siding laid down as to have it taken up, even if unused for years.
The costs being borne by the developer or the customer or summat?—I thought it was the customer myself—at what was the going rate? Of course I assumed that the customer would bear the cost since the spur is going to that site—
Oh well.[sigh] I see this a lot up here—streets are all laid out and paved—someone forgot that you had to pass the plans over to the utility guys to get the water and sewage installed. My favourite is one involving a contractor who had to redo a complete interior project at one of the healthcare centers I deal with----no one bothered to contact the electrical guys about an inspection—found all manner of issues