Somebody, in another forum platform, asked a question about the movement of through passenger equipment between the various stations in Chicago. In particular they were curious about how sleepers from the NYC were placed on the outbound C&NW trains.
That’s a good one since the route from LaSalle Street to Madison Street had to be pretty creative.
Anyone?
[:^)]
I don’t have an answer to that question, but it is a very good one.
I can tell you that there was a connecting track at 16th Street to the St. Charles Air Line from the Rock Island/NYC tracks leading out of LaSalle Street Station. From there, the C&NW ran a track west to Western Avenue which then turned north and ran to the main line C&NW tracks at Kinzie Street where a wye track joined the C&NW main line. That circuitous route was undoubtedly the way that it was done.
Rich
Well, I believe that’s it…then and thanks, Rich.
However, it would seem that all the stars and planets would have to line up just-so that connecting sleeper wouldn’t be delivered late.
By the way, the referenced connection was between the Water Level Limited and the Los Angeles Limited.
It would be neat to find a Trains article, if there is one, about how the cars were transferred. Here’s an article from Central Headlight, April 1946.
First Coast-to-Coast Service by the New York Central
Two Routes to Los Angeles and Two More to San Francisco Receive Warm Public Welcome
The first through daily coast-to-coast railway passenger service between New York and Los Angeles and New York and San Francisco was started Sunday, March 31, by the New York Central and several western railways. This is the first regular daily standard Pullman sleeping car service on the United States railroads that permits trans-continental travel without change of cars.
Two routes to Los Angeles have been established. The first, utilizing the Central’s famous 20th Century Limited in conjunction with the Santa Fe’s Chief, was announced March 20, by G. Metzman, President, New York Central System, and Fred G. Gurley, President, Santa Fe System. A few days later, announcement of an alternative service, utilizing the New York Central’s Iroquois and the Los Angeles Limited was made. The Iroquois also carries a car for San Francisco.
Still later another service, each way between New York and San Francisco, on alternate days, using the Central’s Commodore Vanderbilt and the Exposition Flyer, over the Burlington, Denver & Rio Grande Western and the Western Pacific Route, was placed in operation. This service out of Grand Central Terminal, New York, started April 4 .
On the first day of the new service, the 20th Century Limited, leaving New York at 5:30 P. M. included an all-room sleeping car which, upon arrival of train at LaSalle Street Station, Chicago, at 9:30 the following morning was delivered to the Dearborn Station, where it was attached to the Santa Fe Chief, leaving Chicago at 12:01 P. M. and arriving Los Angeles 11:50 A. M. on Wednesday, April 3. Eastbound the Santa Fe Chief, leaving Los Angeles Saturday, March 30, at 12:01 P. M., similarly included an all-ro
I agree that it would be neat to find an article on how these cars were transferred.
I am no expert on the movement of passenger cars from one railroad to another in Chicago. Far from it. But, I am familiar with the track routes, historically, into Chicago’s six passenger stations.
As to the initial question of how sleepers from the NYC were placed on the outbound C&NW trains, this had to be a unique challenge in that the Northwestern Station was the only one of the six downtown Chicago passenger stations without track access from the south. All trains entering Northwestern Station did so from the north, approaching the station from either the north or west.
All of the other five downtown Chicago passenger stations had track access from the south with trains approaching these stations from the south and from the west. The common trackage between these stations was the St. Charles Air Line (SCAL) running on a north-south axis at around 16th Street from the lakefront to west of the Chicago River.
Four of the five stations (Central, Dearborn, LaSalle and Grand Central) were east of the Chicago River. These four stations were located on the south end of downtown Chicago. The fifth station, Union Station, was situated on the west side of downtown Chicago and on the west side of the Chicago River. However, tracks entering Union Station were from the south with the exception of the Milwaukee Road track which entered from the north but still could be reached from the tracks entering from the south.
So, with the exception of Northwestern Station, it was possible for any train using any of the other five downtown Chicago passenger stations to access trackage to one another’s station. However, since Northwestern S
Union Station in Chicago did have tracks connecting the south tracks to the north tracks. There were two freight tracks next to the river and one passenger track between the freight tracks and the station.
Amtrak routed the Milwaukee to KC train on that track. I have left Chicago for Poughkeepsie NY on this track, so it was also used for ‘non-through’ traffic.
Unfortunately, a through track at Union Station doesn’t help getting a car easily over to the Northwestern Station. MILW tracks don’t get close to the NW tracks till Western Ave which is the same place as using the route along the St Charles Airline.
At one time the MILW had a line up along Goose Island but that didn’t connect with the NW until way north near Clybourne.
Art
It is true that Union Station did have tracks running along the river and that the south and north tracks were connected. But, if the NYC passenger cars were routed through that pasenger track, how did those cars reach Northwestern Station? Weren’t all of the tracks elevated coming into Northwestern Station from the north? The NYC cars would be moving from south to north on tracks that were at ground level, not elevated.
I have a book titled Railroading in Downtown Chicago 1958-1969. There is a photo of a pair of C&NW GP7’s hauling freight cars and moving north on those freight tracks behind Union Station along the river. The caption below the photo reads, “Transfer jobs could bypass Union Station on the east side. Having come north through the 21st Street crossing, this freight haul will pass along the east side of Union Station, then turn west out toward the C&NW’s Proviso Yard”. So, it is obvious that the C&NW used those freight tracks.
But again, the question is whether other roads like NYC were able to transfer passenger cars from LaSalle Street Station to Northwestern Station using this route.
Rich
The fact that there were tracks along the river at Union Station did not mean that they were used for swapping passenger cars.
Now if the MILW spur to Goose Island crossed the NW tracks at grade at Kinsie (continuing across the river to reach the former NW station north of the loop), AND if there were interchange tracks at that crossing, THEN those tracks along Union station COULD have been used to get cars to the NW. Neither of those spurs exist at present, but were present when AMTRAK came about.
But my maps show no other way than using the St Charles Air line and coming back on the NW. Of course the old Pan Handle used tracks along Western Ave (with a stop at Madison) to get to the ROW the MILW used to reach the north side of Union.
Art
An Interesting Site
http://www.chicagoswitching.com/v6/default.asp
From above site, showing the two lines, MILW and NW, crossing at about Kinzie and the River.
Art
Another thing to consider regarding the transfer of cars from any of the four stations east of the Chicago River (Central, Dearborn, LaSalle, Grand Central) to Northwestern Station west of the Chicago River is that the only track crossing the river was the St.Charles Air Line (SCAL). Once SCAL crossed the river on the west side, the Air Line track was elevated, passing over the PRR and CB&Q yards. To my knowledge, there was no spur track off SCAL to ground level at that point. So, that is another reason to conclude that the transfer of cars proceeded west from SCAL to Western Avenue, then north to Kinzie, and back east on the C&NW mainline tracks.
Rich
This afternoon, I remembered that after Grand Central Station was closed, the B&O and C&O began operating their Chicago trains into and out of the North Western Terminal. Is anyone interested in finding out what the routing was? Knowing this may help answer the original question on this thread.
Someone recently answered that question on the Trains forum.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/196217/2143812.aspx#2143812
Here is an excerpt with the answer.
I remember being surprised by the slow and convoluted (IMO) route that the C&O trains used to get to the North Western Station, only to realize a little later that it wasn’t that much different from the way they got to Grand Central! Instead of hanging a right at Robey Street, they continued north on the C&NW Rockwell Sub to Rockwell Junction. Depending on lateness, the arriving trains would from there either head directly in to the station at Western Avenue, or go west on the main line to Kedzie, and back in (a little over three miles). While C&O and B&O were using the C&NW Station, they had use (perhaps exclusive use) of Tracks 1 and 2.
So, once again, trains had to use the circuitous route through C&NW’s Rockwell Sub to the wye at Kinzie, then turn east to proceed into Northwestern Station.
I have a copy of ‘Chicago Union Station - A look at Its History and Operations Before Amtrak’ by Edward M. Derouin and have been re-reading the parts I’d skimmed over before.
On page 33 is a not-to-scale depiction of the ‘North Approach and North Joint Tracks - Circa 1959’ of Chicago’s north side from Union Station over to Western Ave.
As track 5 (the east track of two tracks) starts to turn west toward Western Ave., just before leaving CUS ownership and entering joint PRR and MILW ownership, there is first a spur to right to the MILW C&E line (toward Goose Lake) and then a second spur to the right to the ‘C&NW’. I wonder if this spur could have been used in switching through Pullmans to the CNW?
Anybody know an old Union Station railroader?
Art
Art,
Any way you could scan that page so that we can view it here?
Rich
Rich, I have a scanner but no posting capabilities. Can easily email to someone’s email address, though.
Art
Art,
I will PM you.
Rich
I worked for Santa Fe in Chicago a number of years ago and there were a number of “old heads” who remembered the “passing cars;” as they called the transcontinental sleepers. They said that the cars as often as not were transfered to the coach yard of the respective departing railroad as to the departing train station. The yard location was done to permit servicing and maintenance to the cars, as well enabling them to switched “into line” (i.e., consist order) at the yard instead of at the terminal when departure time would have been imminent.
A story was told by some old heads of an interesting story about the passing cars. Transcontinental passengers had the option, which reportedly most of them took advantage of, to leave their sleeper at the arriving terminal and board again later in the day at the departure terminal to go shopping or sightseeing instead of enduring some boring hours being transferred by a switch engine and sitting in a yard while cleaning and mainetnance were going on. A few passengers did stay with the cars however, particularly during inclement weather.
It seems that a couple traveling to Los Angeles elected to stay with the car for the trip to the coach yard. As the cleaning and maintenance activities took place, word spread throughout the yard that the woman was posing nude in a provocative pose on the couch in their drawing room, with the guy “sketching” her while seated in a corner with his back to the window. (They were probably Hollywood types, who were a regular part of the transcontinental Pullman’s clientele.)
Soon, a step ladder had been positioned just outside the respective window, and railwaymen of every craft were standing in line to get a look. Since there had to be a reason for them to be on the ladder, they each spent a few minutes washing the window!
Santa Fe had a reputation as a “clean window” railroad in terms of its passenger service, but that day one of them was cleaner than
I’m not certain of the routing from LaSalle St to CNW CPT but the SCAL route is the most logical and believable. There was enough time between arrival and departure that the circuitous route wouldn’t have been an issue. I would think the sleeping car transfer runs would have been given priority over freight moves and the trip might have taken an hour or so one way. The connections would have allowed a straight run without any backup moves. I remember reading that the through passengers were transfered between stations by Parmalee, not in the sleeping cars.
It’s very unlikely that CUS trackage was used. Neither PRR nor Milwaukee Road would have any interest in allowing such a move for one thing. Secondly, the corridor along the Milwaukee Road and CNW in the Halsted Ave-Morgan St area was a tangle of freight houses and team tracks. The main tracks didn’t connect until Tower A2 at Western Ave, which is where the Rockwell Line connects anyway as mentioned by another poster.
I wondered about that. That is, whether passengers remained in the cars during the transfer or found another way to get from LaSalle Street Station to Northwestern Station.
Incidentally, for readers unfamilar with Parmalee, the Parmalee Transfer Company was founded in 1853 by Franklin Parmalee to move passengers and baggage between Chicago’s downtown railroad terminals. Originally a horse-drawn vehicle, the company evolved into a motor driven van shuttle and limousine service. The City of Chicago granted Parmalee the exclusive franchise for station transfer trade moving passengers and baggage, which the company held until 1971.
Rich