The consensus of my table at the Southern Pacific and Historical Society annual convention dinner last week was that HO models in brass is dead, replaced by cast metal/plastic models. I was the only one objecting to this conclusion. Beyond the endless GS’s (4-8-4s) and AC’s (4-8-8-2s) , and the possible forthcoming of Athearn Mts (4-8-2s), what does the non-brass market offer? Where are the 0-6-0s, the Mogs (2-6-0s), the Hogs (2-8-0s), the Mikes (2-8-2s), the Decks (2-8-2s), and how about those whaleback tenders? Brass will be the only source for many prototypes in my lifetime.
Markpierce I think brass isn’t dead, but pricing (the old bugaboo about the brass market) is going to severely limit what the manufacturers are going to produce and how many of that particular model. The brass manufacturers are more likely to produce a particular model if they can secure enough presales/preorders to make the expense of an admittedly limited run financially feasible in the first place. I think the brass market will survive in a more constricted condition because of fewer manufacturers making more expensive and smaller runs because of fewer customers who are willing to buy the more unusual models in the first place. I realize this is more or less a circular argument on semantics of whether the brass market is dead or not (I buy my brass used and often abused via Ebay usually it’s “reasonably” priced).
While its numbers have become severely constricted down through the years (once upon a time nearly half of all modelers own some brass items), brass is unlikely to go away completely any time soon. Brass ownership is largely about collecting, not operating and, as such, appeals to a specific type of individual/hobbyist, often in a situation where price is of little concern. While we are down to perhaps a couple of percent of all hobbyists still purchasing brass, their numbers aren’t likely to decrease dramatically in the near future, nor prices restrict their purchases.
With regard to plastic/diecast taking the place of brass today, this is only perhaps a factor when it comes to the more basic design of diesel locomotives. Anyone who has ever owned a large, late model, quality, brass steamer knows that even the very best plastic reproductions don’t even begin to approach that level of detailing. Model plastic/diecast HO steamers may be miles ahead of what was offered even a decade ago but they are still far behind brass. Likewise, you will never see the variety of road-specific steamers that brass has available in when it comes to the plastic market.
CNJ831
$1000 diesels keep demand pretty low
If dead means totally gone then no, but if it means very small then yes.
I think there are several factors at work here. Clearly any new brass is going to be a low quantity, very expensive item aimed mostly at collectors – pity the poor slob who needs a batch of a certain brass engine just to stock his layout prototypically, because he is competing for the same engines with someone who intends never to remove it from its box
I remember the days when hobby shops would actually keep brass in stock just like Athearn blue boxes, and if, say, the Pacific Fast Mail Santa Fe 2-8-0 or Tenshodo USRA 0-8-0 was sold out, they’d just order more. They were considered “affordably high priced” at the time although today the prices seem laughable.
Because it is mostly going to be aimed at collectors, don’t rule out the possibility that new brass might offer the same stuff – PRR K4s, NYC Hudsons, etc – that we can get in metal and plastic.
The other factor is that a very large generation of model railroaders, the guys who took up the hobby right after WWII and are now dying off or retiring or downsizing (parents of boomers and older boomers) bought brass in the 1950s to the 1980s and those collections are increasingly being offered for sale. Berk-fan alluded to used brass – there is a lot of it out there. If what you want is a brass engine just for prestige purposes, it can be had and not for all that much money in the bigger scheme of things. I would not be surprised if part of the problem of the new brass market is the same thing that record stores started experiencing a few years afer compact discs became popular – that the sale of cheaper used CDs (read: brass) has an appreciable impact on the market for new stuff.
My third point, and this is pure speculation, is that nobody seems to be trying what worked so well in the 1970s. That is, when Japan became a true developed country with a high standard of living, you could no longer get “cheap” handmade items made there, so the
Something that is missing in this discussion is that there are also a few of us who, instead of collecting brass locos, build them instead. In that regard, brass is very much alive.
Dr.G
I model primarily passenger equipment, and there are a lot of cars only available in brass. Companies such as The Coach Yard and Overland seem to be doing very well. With companies such as Samhongsa and Ajin building their brass models, you just can’t beat the quality.
The new brass market has slowed down to the point many consider it dead, but brass will continue to be made in small production runs at a very high cost per unit. The high prices do effectively end the purchasing of brass models for more than ninety-five percent or of all modelers, but a few collectors will continue to purchase the choice models.
The prices have not slowed the used brass market as much as the new brass imports, but the used and extremely rare items have increased since they are in demand more than the new brass models. The market is slower now since many buyers have been eliminated by the high prices.
The die cast metal and plastic models have sold well and slowed the sales of models made in brass. For the last fifty years and up to five years ago, brass was the only way to get most of the highly detailed steam models. By all accounts of recent announcements, the die cast metal and plastic models will probably continue to expand their sales causing brass importers to be even more cautious with new products.
Actually, Dave, if you think back carefully, you may recall that when the importers shifted from Japan to Korea, it took some years to get a consistant and quality product out of them. There were at lot of duds and mediocre workmanship from the Koreans, early on.
And…there was indeed an attempt to switch to China by some importers in more recent years, also with some questionable results. Although the Chinese seem to have done very well in the plastics market (where the items are mainly injection molded), the ability to produce small numbers of very high quality handmade models consistantly, seems to take time to establish. With the very limited brass market today, I’d be surprised to see any further shifting of production from country to country, considering the remaining buyers appear quite willing to pay the high prices demanded today.
CNJ831
I don’t know. With models coming out that are much more affordable and just as detailed, I don’t think the majority of people are interested in spending a grand for a locomotive. I know I’m not. NOt that I have that kinda money to throw around on locomotives. Even if I did have the money, I wouldn’t do it.
I can’t speak for U.S. prototype pure HO modelers, but in HOj, Japanese prototype, if I don’t run brass, I don’t run steam (or much of anything else!) Even the D50 class 2-8-2’s with cast metal frames have brass superstructures. Also, my brass models are definitely not being maintained as a collection of unpainted in the original box items. Most of the boxes have long since disappeared. Many of the locos have been modified in subtle (or not so subtle) ways to make them more closely resemble specific locos I’ve photographed, or to operate more dependably.
(How many people remember when Linn Westcott, speaking of 1960’s brass, redefined RTR as, “Ready to rework?”)
Both the TTT and the JNR Nichigeki-Sen are intended to be operating railroads, not display tables. That means that I want things to appear as they would have in 1964. One notable encounter with a “brass collector” involved the modifications I made to TTT #42, Baldwin 0-8-0T, class of '97 (originally JGR class 4020.) In line with what was done by their prototype owners to locos of similar vintage that survived past the Pacific War, I’ve equipped it with Westinghouse air brakes (one-lung compressor, air tanks and highly visible piping) and a turbogenerator. It also has a grimy black finish - rather more grimy than black - and a reworked electrical pickup system that increases its reliability by about 1000%. This chap told me in no uncertain terms that those modifications “ruined” its value as a collectible to him. I replied, with equal emphasis, that I had purchased the KIT in Japan in the 1960’s to provide motive power for model coal trains, not as a convenience for 21st century brass collectors.
Operations forever. Collectors can stick to stamps - and vice versa.
Chuck
I’m a psgr train freak and the availability of prototypically specific equipment as opposed to generics differing only in paint was the big attraction brass had for me. Sometimes I could “mix 'n match” as w/ my Panama Lmtd where I used a Soho bag/dorm and observation w/ Railway Classics diner and sleeper lounge (which 2 cars cost more than the rest of the train including engine) and Walthers sleepers for the other 8 cars.
One problem I have w/ brass psgr cars is they have “too much” detailing. Getting every valve and pipe fiting on the underbody where it’s invisible and frequently interferes w/ operation seems counter productive to me
The straw that broke this camel’s back was getting 16 brass cars that are admitedly things of beauty for my Empire Builderand then having to disassemble every truck and change the back to back dimension on the wheels from min (and sometimes less) to max because they shorted out on my Shinohara double slip switches which had min flangeways. Then, when things were finally running right, Walthers anounces an Empire Builder that will probably cost less for the whole train than 2 of the brass cars.
Samhongsa closed down their model railroad shop, last year (or the year before). Unfortunately, there are no plans to reopen it.
I have recently rec’d my Overland Models ATSF 60 Full Dome and I’m very impressed w/the model. I shelled out 430.00 w/shipping included and will in all likelyhood be my last purchase of brass cars save for the NP Budd diner which is necessary for my BN/BNSF business fleet. I have seen Coach Yards Pleasure dome and didn’t notice anything incorrect w/the model. With Walthers producing the Empire builder, I will be able to add a Pass sleeper and the two coaches one of which was converted to the Lounge car Como/Mountain View an
Yes, but the plastic models are not railroad/car/locomotive specific. They are merely generics. Further, most common locomotives are NEVER modeled. As for SP locomotives, please give me a break from the ACs and GSs. How about the more common Hogs, Mogs, and Decks? I’d buy’m, if they’d make’m. Meantime, I’ll buy the brass, even though I’d prefer the affordability and mechanically reliable of plastic/die-cast metal models. (Now offer me some MM-3s.)
Mark
I’ve noticed that used brass prices on eBay have begun to fall in many cases, markedly in the past 6 months. I’ll use an “indicator” engine (Denver & Salt Lake 2-6-6-0) as an example, as its an engine I love and always watch the auctions, but just don’t have any justification in owning.
PFM/United did five runs of these (69-78). Three years ago a good unpainted mid run example would be traded on eBay for $600, now its down to under $450.
Brass in general has become a collector’s hobby … few people even want to run $2000 models on a layout and risk it hitting the floor.
As a result, highly detailed plastic models are taking the place of brass in the market.
But if the price inflation doesn’t slow down on plastic, no one will be wanting to run plastic locos on their layouts either.
If you want to get a really nice plastic steamer with DCC sound, you’ll be looking at $300 - $400 these days, and a nice plastic diesel with DCC sound will be $200-$300.
Even your basic non-sound, non-DCC plastic loco is about $100 these days.
Sheesh, I can remember saving up $15 in 1968 to buy a new Athearn SD-45. Those days aren’t soon to return … [swg]
My mistake. I got them confused with Sam Model Tech. Samhongsa closed in 2004. The Sam Tech stuff is just as good as Samhongsa.
Doctor G, I’ve seen a lot of model railroad “stuff” in my life, and nothing is as impressive or awesome as scratchbuilt brass locomotives. If I had even a quarter of the talent it takes to build one, I’d start RIGHT NOW. 
Would love to see some pics!
I watch Ebay also and many used prices have eased a bit, but it could due to less people are actually biding and that lowers the price. The older Tenshodo Crowns have come down also, but I noticed most of the W&R limited run models go up in price. Collectors are still out there and buy what they want. Also the Challenger PRR S1 model is bringing upwards of two thousand everytime one come on the block.
The market will never be what is was during the 1980 to 2000 era, but some models will only be available in brass. I also noticed that Ebay is way down in total items under HO b