I agree. When a well detailed car is running down the track the details may not be easy to see, but when you are holding the same car in your hands, seeing the details can be very enjoyable.
I have a few very nicely detailed RTR cars and I love examining them. I also have 150 or so Athearn BB, Accurail and similar cars that are not finely detailed and IMHO they look fine on the tracks too.
This is really an ‘each to his own’ debate.
Dave
Necessary? From a manufacturer standpoint, they are communicating yes. ScaleTrains reports the majority of their demand is for their Rivet Counter series of models. Tangent Scale Models sell very well. Etc.
From a hobbyists stand point, was you can see in this forum, some are satisfied with lower detail models, some prefer higher fidelity models. That’s pretty much it in a nut shell.
So what about Walthers autoracks, they are not high detail (all molded on) - I know, I have some. What about the operator versions from ScaleTrains more modern autorack? What about Accurail open autoracks available on the secondary market. These are examples of earlier, middle and later era auto racks without all the details.
As for other alternatives, there are a lot of lower detail models on the secondary market. Tangent just released a high fidelity Greenville 86’ auto parts box car. I just sold 7 of my Athearn blue box Greenvilles 86 footers - two of them have the same paint schemes as the Tangent cars.
In the current day, really there are models to satisfy both the high fidelity fans and the “good enough” lower detail hobbyists. I really don’t understand why there is an issue these days and people keep posting the same old same old. There is plenty for everyone; granted you may have to hunt for models creatively but with a little effort, you can usually find what you need. When the pandemic eventually subsides, train shows have plenty of lower detail models.
What is necessary?
That all depends on what you want to get out of your railroad.
There is a group of older rails here in town that each have large home layouts. All these guys care about is operation. They run their trains as close to prototype practice as possible. These guys look at Blue Box cars and any reliable locomotive as being good enough. I don’t think they look at any feature on the car other than reporting marks and number. As long as nothing derails or breaks down, the equipment meets all their needs.
I like to look at my trains, and take eye level photographs. I have a different standard that requires brake details and free standing ladders. I do not put brake detail on fishbelly flats or gondolas. You can’t see it, I do not include it.
I have no need for super-detailed locomotives. Locomotives get handled for repair and maintenance, and I expect them to be a bit more durable than freight cars. 99% of minute detail can be better replicated for photography with paint anyway, and I am a very skilled painter. A properly painted and weathered locomotive photographs better than a super-detailed locomotive anyway.
Some people desire accuracy as much as possible, and place less importance on durability. For these people the newer hyper-detailed models are necessary, and I am glad they are available for them to purchase.
I get a lot of enjoyment from buiding as much from kits as possible, but many people do not. This is how we each find different ways to get enjoyment from this hobby, and again, it is all just fine.
There is plenty of space for “you do your thing, and I will do mine” under this umbrella for all of us.
After all, the world does not move to the beat of just one drum, and what might be right for you might not be right for some.
If you are having fun, you are doing it the right way.
-Kevin
And then there’s the scale effect. Handrails at a prototypical 1 3/8 inch diameter would have to be around 15 thousandths to be scale. One does wonder why that needs to be modelled especially when viewed from several actual feet away, x 87 for scale effects.
The other problem with such detail is the effect it has on your other modelling.
1 3/8" is about the size of many tree leaves for example. Does the modeller demanding that level of detail on the rolling stock require the same level of “realism” in the trees?
Modelling is always representational, by definition. A model is a somewhat simplified version of some reality. To what level of correspondence to prototype you require is absolutely personal.
Just for example, Impressionism and abstract in painting developed precisely because the exact depiction of photographs rendered earlier methods of painting obsolete, i.e. of little interest. For that matter photography itself has developed a whole subset of technique devoted to artistic representation rather than accurate realism.
As has been accurately pointed out in other threads, model railroading is about your imagination. The models are our tools (some suggest “toys” implying something less serious which is incorrect, toys are very serious objects) we use to unlock our imagination. The level of detail you may require to unlock your imagination may well be very different to mine but the experience of flights of imagination are pretty similar for all of us and these drive our fascination with this hobby.
From brass classics to current RTR, I like very detailed models but I also appreciate the robust simplicity of ready to run, or even toy trains. Imagination is the key.
Not mine. I don’t think I own anything that can be desccribed as a “Very Serious Object”.
-Kevin
The reason the super detailed stuff is done is simple economics. A highly detailed model witll sell to some active model railroaders but will sell even more to arm chair collectors and then we have the just collectors. A much bigger pie that model railroaders with an active layout.
Yes.
I see solid empty trains of autoracks all the time at Enola Yard, sometimes 50 solid autoracks (yes I count them) and one can most definitely see through them to see what is behind them. Some new racks are harder to see through, but the vast majority are see-through.
I greatly appreciate Intermountain’s model. It is excellent in every way! The new run has panels that fit precisely as they should and they did a great job of achieving the look of the real cars. I like the way the light plays off the real metal side panels. To me they look as real as you can get, and since I’m not spending a fortune on little HO cars, I like being able to see through the racks. There are two different screens, and the one represents the earlier screens and is more see-through than what’s on the late BNSF cars.
I also have the Atlas autorack cars and they are a great car too.
I have four of the Tangent 86’ box cars, and there are many differences between the individual versions. To be honest, it’s THE boxcar I always wanted. My buddy feels the same way (and got 3 of them so far). I cannot stand the crude details on the earlier cars (and got rid of all of mine many years ago), and if I even wanted to buy an earlier Walthers Thrall car right now, there are people price gouging on Ebay, attempting to sell some of them for more than twice the MSRP from when they were brand new. This makes the Tangent car at $52.95 a bargain in my eyes.
Some people are spending a relative fortune on motive power and have multiple unit sets of Genesis diesels. Others have large fleets of steam or both steam and diesel. I do not. Right now, I have one steam engine of my own of any kind (it is plastic) and that’s it (all other engines are my son’s).
So, if I want to buy the more nicely detailed rolling stock, and if I teach my 14 year old son how to handle it correctly, and we have the cu
I have often wondered how many new models are sold to collectors that do not have an operating layout. It would be great to know the percentage. I am sure some of the manufacturers have an idea.
If HO train cars were only purchased by people who were going to run them on layouts I would be there would be fewer models available and they would be much more expensive.
-Kevin
John, I suspect many of us will draw a line on how much we are willing to pay for a freight car. I won’t buy a (say) $60.00 flat car. I almost bulked at paying $50.00 for a boxcar but,decided to bit the apple and buy it.
Thankfully 90% of my upgraded freight car fleet was bought used at good prices.
BTW…My Santa Fe 2-8-0 and 2-8-2 looks mighty good when coupled to my KD boxcars on my test track.
At the present time, only running at a club or on modules, high end rolling stock does not make sense, it is too fragile. It is embarassing to pull a $60 RTR car out of transport or the original box to find it has broken details. So I am updating blue box and Accurail kits as runners. Just as fun, without the expense. If and when I get a permanent layout, I will have a place for a few of those high dollar RTR cars. But I don’t really need them.
I hope I do not cross the “This Hobby Is Too Expensive” line here.
I have no problem paying $65.00 for a Yarmouth resin kit or $125.00 for a brass tank car. These are occassional purchases of special items. I have specific models on my “To Buy List”, and do not pay this price for something I will not use.
There are two Sunshine boxcar kits I would pay $100.00 for, but there always seems to be someone else willing to pay $105.00 for these on eBay… someday.
For the most part, I think hobby prices (the real prices, not MSRP), are right where they should be. Accurail kits are right on where Athearn was when adjusted for inflation. The better models cost more. The $50.00 price point for Rapido’s new PENNSYLVANIA boxcars was acceptable to me for that model.
I can get an undecorated Kadee boxcar for less than $25.00, and it is perfect in every way (for me).
[Y]
Public displays are the perfect place for the fleet of blue box Athearn freight cars. They look more than good enough for these displays.
-Kevin
Kevin, I am sure we all have our “over budget” price range. I had mine since I started buying trains 60 years ago.
OTOH If I wanted a (say) a United Brass Class B Two truck Shay then I would be willing to fork the cash over for it but, (say) $65.00 flat car is a price I’m not willing to pay since there are other quality flat cars available at cheaper prices.
I hope that explain what I was trying to say.
I think if highly detailed models are your thing you should be in proto scales (Proto87, Proto64, Proto48, etc.).
While highly detailed models are great for close up photography and display, I just don’t really see much difference from lesser detailed models when running them on the layout.
Paul
I have wanted high fidelity models of the 86’ auto parts box cars as well and the new Tangent models are fantastic. I’ve gotten 4 so far (1 DT&I, 1 Sou and 2 SP) and may get a 5th. I’m selling off most of my old crude Athearn blue box 4 Greenvilles.
Aren’t Walthers 86’ hi-cubes Pullman Standards? Athearn’s 8 doors are Thralls IIRC. Anyway, yeah, the listed prices are in many cases as high as the Tangents or more, and for a much lower detail car. I bought most of the 4-door Walthers P-S 86’ cars I needed a few years ago for around $20-25 each that are appropriate for the Ford FAST, a few as cheap as $8 (green PC, green DT&I, red Santa Fe, brown PRR, green NYC, MILW, early Conrail)
Yep, agreed
[quote]
I have often wondered how many new models are sold to collectors that do not have an operating layout. It would be great to know the percentage. I am sure some of the manufacturers have an idea.
Before this thread quickly spins into forbidden territory and gets blocked, let me join others in keeping it on track (pun).
Can someone please explain extreme detail or too expensive for a car? Probably not. Would I spend more than $20 on one car? Yes, but only if it’s worth it. Atlas Master Line is something worth the price. Paying more than the cost of feeding a small country is probably not worth it.
I think the Tangent 86’ Greenville speaks to the “exteme detail” explanation nicely. Another example of “extreme detail” are the Arrowhead series of coal cars and Railgon gondola. Look no further than these fine examples.
As for “too expensive” … I don’t think that assertion was made by the original poster and injects a greater likihood of topic moderation.
How much exactly would that be? [*-)]
My mistake–
I thought the Walthers cars were Thralls, you may be correct they are P-S. I have been avoiding them.
There is somebody trying to sell a pair of new Walthers ATSF Autoparts boxcars for something like $79.95 nib.
I want Santa Fe cars, but at that price I can wait for Tangent’s which will be light years better.
John
I’ve bought the Walthers P-S 86’ auto parts cars because I want a realistic mix which were typical of the Ford FAST, which is an autoparts train that rotated every 90 days between competing railroads from Michigan to California (It ran on the UP, D&RGW, WP, SP on the west end).
Here are some photo’s showing typical auto parts cars in the Ford FAST.
In the top photo is a green P-S DT&I (Walthers) and blue Greenville DT&I (Tangent).
Middle photo is a green P-S Penn Central (Walthers) and red Thrall Santa Fe.
Bottom photo is a brown Greenville Southern (Tangent).
I’ve identified the other Walthers P-S 86 footers in other auto parts train photo’s for my RR as well, so this is why I have not avoided Walthers. Granted the Walthers are not up to Tangent standards but in the absence of a better version, these will do; and they are a better looking than the old Athearn blue box 86’ foot cars.
I also wanted a red Santa Fe Walther 86’ as well, and I watched Ebay over time and eventually found a single for about $25 IIRC.
Now that we have the Tangnet Greenvilles and Walthers P-S, I’d love to see someone do the 4 door Thralls.
Larry–
I love the Kadee freight cars though some of the printing can be a bit light, but I also have a son who wants all modern stuff (though he does like some really big steam). I do not want to have two entire freight car fleets (am actually blowing out older prototypes on Ebay), so on our layout we have just “modern” (to us) freight cars. Yes, I’m totally cheating by decades by pulling autoracks and 86’ boxcars with big steam, but Johnny also has Genesis 2.0 SD90MAC-H’s and an MTH SD70M-2 to pull them with. I do have to say, the big stuff looks good behind a big 4-8-4 or 4-6-6-4.
I would have kept some brass but 1. wanted to generate some more funds for college costs and 2. “good quality” Santa Fe brass steam that actually runs well without considerable work was not possible for me to find for less than $1000 per engine. You may have been very fortunate indeed with the engines you acquired, that I cannot deny, and I hope you enjoy them thoroughly! I have a DM&IR 2-8-8-4 coming just because I always wanted one of those…and it will be 20% of the cost of a good brass one, which allows me to have some nice freight cars.
Since we only need 75 or so freight cars on the layout, and have most of what we’d ever “need”, buying nice ones makes sense for us. I would not necessarily recommend that for others.
I bought the original release Intermountain Autoracks but did subsequently sell them after playing with them for awhile specifically because the screens didn’t lay down flush and “look right”. However, I basically got what I paid for them or very close to it. My buddy took them off my hands and was glad to get them, and a few went on Ebay.
Clearly, even then as well as now, there are people that have no problem spending $90 or $100 (depending upon how scarce the roadname is) for an Intermountain autorack. Maybe some here can
Rio Grande–
Yes, I saw some of your posts elsewhere.
Santa Fe had many more Thrall hi cubes than Greenvilles…
When the big auto plants in California closed, Conrail bought large numbers of the 86’ boxcars from Santa Fe. What I want to know is: does anyone have a listing of those cars that went to Conrail.
Today, BNSF owns zero 86’ hi cubes, I think UP has very few if any left, CSX and NS have the lion’s share, CN/CP have some remaining cars, and idk if KCS retains any at all. I would like to know more about that traffic.
My Mechanical Engineer friend got into the big plants because he designed specialty truck trailers. He told me he’s seen plants big enough to house multiple rows of 10 86’ hi cube boxcars at a time. With just in time delivery, the plants would load/unload 10 cars simultaneously. They’d have the 60’ cars elsewhere on other indoor sidings.
Edit: CR hysterical society does have some information on the cars that came from other roads. It is hit or miss.
John