A long time ago on the Milwaukee- Chicago Turbootrains we had technicians riding with us to care for, and trouble-shoot the units. One day the old-head engineer kept playing with the throttle and over-reving the engine. The technician, from the manufacturer in France, warned the engineer to not do that. The old head barked at the tech,“I’m the engineer!” The tech replied, “Here you are the engineer. In my country they wouldn’t even let you run a broom.”
People get mad, they’re invisible, and they, like me type a little too fast to check for spelling or grammar mistakes. But we always feel better afterward. Just enjoy the board.
Mitch
Maybe the guy in the Herodotus story will be right, and we’ll hear singing… out of both ends, perhaps?
I am wondering since you are the one who started this post, where did this come from. Its tough to discern in this day and age when one says this, what they are capable of. I can understand that its tough to take a dressing down from someone especially when they are wrong or a little more ignorant than you but resorting to that kind of expression just leads the other people on this board to not want to carry on an exchange in the event of what response they may receive. I am sure you didn’t mean it in this way but its hard to know. I am sure some people in certain areas(i.e. New York, Colombine) may have feelings about that sort of thing.
This is always one of the most interesting forums due to the mix of people. I would imagine its the toughest on those who haven’t worked in a occupation where a demeaning by a boss, mentor, journeyman, etc. hasn’t
That would be my temper getting the best of me and basically telling the select few to be nice and civil or maybe I will just return the insult with another insult. I’m not afraid to tell someone off if they deserve it; I just hate to resort to it.
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98
some of what you mentioned has been discused…and has been showen that it WONT WORK… its not so much that someone wants the subject killed becouse they dont like the subject…its more a matter of wanting it killed becoues stupid people insist on beating a dead horse mentality… peopl
In a sense, yes. I was referring to the original story – it comes in various flavors down through history – about the fellow who had committed some capital offense or other against an emperor, and was told he’d be pardoned if he could teach a favorite horse to sing in a year. The man went away cheerful – to the astonishment of his colleagues – and said the following (paraphrased):
Many things may happen in a year. The horse might die. I might die. The Emperor might die. And who knows, the horse may learn to sing…
Mark, I think the odds just went through the roof…
Dave – let me say this gently.
When csxengineer and the other railroaders say ‘it won’t work’, it’s both because they can see problems that exist in their experience and aren’t being solved, and because their experience tells them that a given theoretical approach isn’t right, or isn’t optimal in the real world although with a restricted or theoretical set of conditions or evaluations it may seem good.
While they may be crotchety in response, it’s a good idea to separate out the valuable criteria of criticism, and make them your own, and adopt a ‘sticks and stones’ approach toward what you may not like. At least part of the crotchetiness comes from seeing the same old things crop up, in the same old forms, with the same old reasons why it won’t work, too many times. Some people tend to lose patience when it’s the same person that keeps doing that.
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98
some of what you mentioned has been discused…and has been showen that it WONT WORK… its not so much that someone wants the subject killed becouse they dont like the subject…its more a matter of wanting it killed becoue
Mark,
I used my Turbostory to relate an insulting situation on the railroad as an illustration of things that are said. I didn’t think the techs remarks were necessary. I just thought they were downright funny. Iron Mike had it coming. He also said that trainmen’s contracts were bad. He said,“Trainmen don’t want money, they want miles.”
Here’s another Turbostory for bedtime. On the LaCrosse division we had an engineer who had been a cowboy in Idaho. He was one of the funniest people I ever worked with on the railroad. We came through Oconomowoc one morning on a road freight. We were moving slowly due to a restricting signal. As we clanked across street crossings in town he would put his jacket on backwards, flip his hat around, hang way out of the cab, flap his arms and roar. All the car horns would start blaring. One day, on a day off, the Wisconsin Division caller called him to be the fireman on a Turbotrain to Chicago. “Worst trip I ever was on,” he told me. “That kazoo (he meant Astazue, but was referring to the deadman alerter) kept going off, and the train kept dying.” “Later on that goofy French technician asked me what I thought of their train.” "I told him, “You folks should’ve stuck to makin’ rubbers 'cause this ain’t no locomotive!” That one had me soaking wet for 3 days.
Good night kids,
Mitch
junctionfan
What you are up against is a group of people with years of knowledge about the subject of your ideas and in many cases it is a matter of “been their, done that”. That is not to say something that you thought of has actually been tried, but that somebody or some group paid to think of, evaluate, recommend and implement an idea, has decided that something like the idea you propose will not fly. Some of the members of this forum might have actually been involved in this kind of planning, many more probably just know about these kinds of studies.
I have about 40 more years in business than you, about 15 on railroads, the same time in traffic and logistics management for shippers and another 10 in my own business. I have had lots of ideas. When it was in the area of my job responsibility, I put forth those that seemed to have merit. I must say that most were shot down at some stage of the game, a few, usually modest in scope, made it through the gauntlet and were adopted. I don’t remember for sure, but I think there had to be a time or two when a boss came back to me with words to the effect that it was “the dumbest idea that I have ever heard”.
It is a little bit different on the forum, because livelihoods-jobs- are not a stake, and everybody is open to having some fun with an off the wall idea. For example, I participated in the discussions about multiple crews on trains, and was included in those whom csxengineer declared as being nuts. Last I checked, my sanity was in pretty good shape, but after the idea was kicked around, the few merits of the plan were way offset by the total impracticality of the plan. Some things might be possible, but if the cost of doing something new is greater than any savings and there is no usefuil service improvement, what is the point? Change for change sake doesn’t make more money.
By the way, I disagree with csxengineer on some things, but I won’t disrespect his ability or the experience he has on his jo
Dave,
Wouldn’t the opposite also apply?
If, after years of doing this for a living, and seeing first hand what will, and will not work in a actual railroad enviroment, I explain that a concept, although workable on paper and in theory, can not be made to work in real life without tremendous expense, shouldnt that carry as much weight as the proponent of the concept seems to demand for his idea?
Myself, and several other have over and over explained that the powers junctionfan seems to belive our goverment has do not exsist.
We have repeatedly asked him to review his facts, and on several occasions, overmod has gently nudged him to gather hard facts and figures, to no avail.
All attempts at getting him to see our side seem to result in his getting upset that we do not seem to want to jump on his bandwagon, impeach our government, create radical change, and “make it work”, when in fact, combined, we may have over a century of railroading experience among us, and for the most part, we have seen most everything, and when we ask for hard facts, we want hard facts, not complaints that we are being mean, nor demands we change our viewpoint without actual figures showing we are incorrect.
Thick skin is a necessary accesory out here.
He states he welcomes debate, but whenever anyone debates with him, he resorts to accusing his opponent of being mean and insulting.
True, but he seems more intent on making his opponent play nice, and respect his concept, instead of defending his position/concept, and providing facts to base his position on.
No one here has to respect his ideas and concepts, until he puts on a pair of workboots and gloves, and starts tieing hand brakes and throwing switches.
Although being a armchair railroader might be fun, doing it for real, and a living, is even better, and more educating.
So far, I have seen no hard fact and figures for the idea, despite repeated request from s
I’ll come switch with you Ed… We can use my S6 !!! A real switch engine, one that loads when you tell it too. See if we can’t shake the rust off !
Randy
He he he,
Sometimes a thread is almost more fun to watch than to participate in…
Okay Andrew, here’s the deal…out and out personal attacks and flaming…not considered to be proper etiquette on the forums…whining about why no one treats you nicely, probably not such good form either…so if the other kids at the playground make fun of you and call you names…perhaps you need to take a look at how you’re coming across to them.
So far I haven’t seen where anyone has made a blantant personal attack, and believe me we’ve had a few charmers around here. But you have been they target of a few …remarks. But by and large folks tend to write the way the speak. Folks who are in a profession such as railroads, military, sailors, firemen, police officers, etc…tend to be a bit curt sometimes in dealing with other…it’s a fact of life. They way we talk here, is way toned down from the way we tend to talk at work or we’d get tossed off the forums. But nonetheless, in getting points across in these lines of work, you at times belittle folks because a bit of shaming goes a long way. It’s not always the most effective tool, and sometimes it’s not the appropriate tool, but it tends to be the first round out of box.
Most of us have to deal daily with young bucks that feel the need to show us what we’re doing wrong and how we can do it better. If you want folks to engage you stimulating discussion, and to take what you have to say seriously, then you are going to have to roll with and establish rapport. And that ain’t gonna happen if you come across as a whiner. That is as true here as it is in the rest of life. So in short it means thickening the skin a bit and taking what a few of the pros here say to heart. I don’t tell them how to run a railroad and hopefully they won’t try and tell me how to fly a plane or run my sailors.
I’ve seen alot of flaming and personal attacks on the forum, and I’ll be the one of the first to complai
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard
Dave,
Wouldn’t the opposite also apply?
If, after years of doing this for a living, and seeing first hand what will, and will not work in a actual railroad enviroment, I explain that a concept, although workable on paper and in theory, can not be made to work in real life without tremendous expense, shouldnt that carry as much weight as the proponent of the concept seems to demand for his idea?
Myself, and several other have over and over explained that the powers junctionfan seems to belive our goverment has do not exsist.
We have repeatedly asked him to review his facts, and on several occasions, overmod has gently nudged him to gather hard facts and figures, to no avail.
All attempts at getting him to see our side seem to result in his getting upset that we do not seem to want to jump on his bandwagon, impeach our government, create radical change, and “make it work”, when in fact, combined, we may have over a century of railroading experience among us, and for the most part, we have seen most everything, and when we ask for hard facts, we want hard facts, not complaints that we are being mean, nor demands we change our viewpoint without actual figures showing we are incorrect.
Thick skin is a necessary accesory out here.
He states he welcomes debate, but whenever anyone debates with him, he resorts to accusing his opponent of being mean and insulting.
True, but he seems more intent on making his opponent play nice, and respect his concept, instead of defending his position/concept, and providing facts to base his position on.
No one here has to respect his ideas and concepts, until he puts on a pair of workboots and gloves, and starts tieing hand brakes and throwing switches.
Although being a armchair railroader might be fun, doing it for real, and a living, is even better, and more educating.
So far, I have seen no har
Time for me to respond to you all (particularly the bad apples)
Let me be clear on my questioning and continual questioning. I am not disputing facts so much as I am disputing it’s logic and wisdom behind them. This is called philosophy. Being that I like philosophy because it is the fundamental way of free and advanced thought in new ideas, why should the world of the railroad be exempt?
Philosophy is described with several meaning including-the study of the truths or principles underlying all knowledge, being and reality; a particular system of philosophical doctrine; the critical evaluation of such fundamental doctrines; the study of the principles for guidance in practical affairs; and a philosophical spirit or attitude.
Thats what I’m doing.
Socrates said that “the unexplained life was not worth living” which meant that if people do not examine and critically evaluate the principles by which they live, they cannot be sure that worth-while principles exist. To me if it is not logical or consistant, than it might not be true.
If you don’t like my opinions, fine; but don’t think for a moment that they are necessarily wrong because the whole definition of an opinion is that I may not be wrong and there is nothing stubborn about it unless you can provide an undisputable argument involving something concrete like the laws of physics and I still maintain my opinion.
Much of what I have heard for so far, is something that is relatively illogical and inconsistant-I may interpret wrong but that’s just one of the many catch 22s of being a human. The fact that you repeat the same argument to me and not answer my questions, is not really your fault either but both sides have no right to insult each other when they can’t even answer a simple question concerning ones use of imagination without using facts. A sad day indeed when people need facts to use their imagination.
In concern with the U.S Constitution and the Bill of Rights,
What is there to not understand? Can’t you use any logic and imagination to find out what I’m saying? I re-read it to make sure it was clear as a bell and it is.
I don’t have to name the “bad-apples”, they know who they are.
Point well taken…
Have you read it? Do you understand it?
Andrew - let’s get a re-write of your post that does not assume that the government owns any of the property on which the railroads are built. While there were some land grants involved in the building of some of the western railroads, the greatest portion of the rail mileage in the US is built on right of ways acquired in exactly the same manner as the property my house was built on. They paid for it.
The government does have the right of eminent domain, but they have to have a reason. And they have to fairly compensate the property owner for what they take - they can’t just “take” it.
As for the leadership that gets elected - they do so based on a large number of parameters. The candidate who tells the most people what they want to hear gets the prize. People how don’t care about railroads don’t care how the candidate feels about trains unless it affects them directly.
Your opinions are not without value. But you must also factor in experience. Just because you feel something is a good idea doesn’t mean it will work. The US Patent Office is chock full of wonderful inventions that weren’t worth the paper they were drawn on or the materials used to make a model of them. But their creator thought the world of the idea. And has a patent on it. Several people have offered “been there, done that, didn’t work” explanations, but you seem to choose to ignore their experience/knowledge.
Your challenge here is to make it understood by all, not just yourself. In doing so you will either enlighten us with your brilliance or discover the fallacy of your arguments. At present it would appear that few of us are dazzled by your concepts, but several have found fallacies in what you have to say. You want us to listen to what you say - try listening to what we say.
We need to respect everyones opinion even if it does not agree with our line of thought. Afterall, we live in a very diverse world with many conflicting opinions on every topic. Some topics are like touching the third rail such as religion and politics. Do not even go there. The forum gives all of us the oopportunity to express our views on a subject. By reading alternative views we can all grow a little in knowledge.
A short note to Mark H.: I admit my typing is not letter perfect. Many of my mispellings are the result of fat fingers on the keys. Could you install a form of spell check for the forum. That might remove much of the grief some of us get from the fat finger syndrome.
Cheers,
*** Watkins