i was thinking of incorporating a helper pocket on my layout. i already have a spur on the base of the grade but it is for an industry. would the prototype double up on these sorts of track … that is use it for a industry and a helper pocket… any info would be great
dan
Well I can’t think of a prototype example, but, assuming the siding is large enough to handle the hepers and the maximum number of cars set out at the industry, and considering most prototype roads would do anything to avoid extra turnouts on the main line - I would think apsolutely yes.
Sheldon
If the siding could be split to add an additional track to hold the helpers it may work. I can’t see moving helper engines just to service the industry. But if you have no choice why note use it anyway. Would add some extra operations to that local. “Just gotta watch out for that next priority freight or passenger on the main”…
I note that Chessie SD50, a couple of them on that mainline with some Chessie SD35s to come out of the hole for the grade definately would be awesome though.
Dan,Here’s the thing…The industry owns the track beyond the derail and may not be in that good of shape and of course when the local needs to switch the industries you have the helper locomotive(s) in the way…
Also a helper at the foot of the grade wouldn’t do much good since the train would be stopped on the grade and would need to restart the train on the grade…This is why helpers are added long before the grade.
My helper spur is located at the end of the (level track) station siding AWAY from the grade, which begins just beyond the points of the ‘toward the grade’ turnout. Of course, my helpers are pushers.
A head-end helper (preferred for passenger ops) would need a spur somewhere near the front of the train - which would be stopped on the level.
I think that Larry (Brakie) was thinking of a pusher.
One possibility would be to have the ‘industry’ be something the railroad maintains that would need occasional pickups and deliveries of freight cars. A small MW depot (stick rail, ties, a small warehouse for kegs of spikes, tie plates, joint bars and anticreepers…) comes to mind. Granted that it would be gross overkill for just the modeled trackage, but as the central distribution point for a subdivision that also has branch lines…
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Chuck wrote:I think that Larry (Brakie) was thinking of a pusher.
That is one of the curses of having worked on the railroad…A pusher is also known as a helper…
Call me ignorant, but I can’t recall evidence of isolated helper pockets so I doubt it was a widespread practice where helpers were deployed. Locomotives operate from engine service yards, not isolated spurs. Locomotives need to be serviced (turned, fueled, watered, oiled, inspected, whatever).
Mark
The very last photo in William E. Warden’s Norfolk & Western’s Magnificent Mallets is of Y-6a #2160 standing in lonely splendor on the Boaz pusher siding east of Vinton VA. Quoting the caption:
“You’ll not find Boaz on any road map or in any timetable*; the siding was there, and nothing more.”
Chuck (N&W fan modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Mark,The C&O had several helper pockets…Two that comes readily to mind is the Limeville(Ky) Pusher(use to push trains over the Limeville bridge incline) and the Scary Hill pusher…These jobs was abolish with the coming of the diesel.
CSX and NS still uses pushers.
Were these helper pockets located at short-distance grades? … Gee, even the very short (2 mile) eastbound grade approaching the Benicia Bridge had helpers deployed from Port Costa (with its well-photoged engine-service yard), about 4 miles distant from the grade. While that grade was just 1%, it was steep because the grades otherwise were nearly non-existent between Oakland and Sacramento. The second-steepest grade was the westbound bridge approach at 0.48%.
Mark
Mark,The Limeville grade was a sharp 0.7%…The C&O used either a H8 2-6-6-6 or a H7 2-8-8-2…These pushers would couple onto the caboose and shove the train upgrade and cut off on the fly.
Not sure what the Scary Hill grade is but,it usually drew a H8 as a pusher.
Larry, ditto the Benicia Bridge pushers on the SP, except they were Consolidations. Some of the helpers had devices to prevent the coupler pin from dropping, keeping the coupler open; allowing a very simple cut off just by slowing the helper…
Mark
In general, one end of the helper grade would have some sort of servicing facility where the idle engines were cared for. Sometimes it was at an existing facility, but not always. There was no need for facilities at the other end if the helper district was short. Even for more lengthy districts, the only servicing need would be a water tank. Two scenarios:
1): Helper Station at the bottom of the grade -
The locomotive leaves the facility and couples on to the train. When the train passes the summit, the helper cuts off ready to return home. If it is helping on the head end, it will be useful to have a pocket handy to get clear and allow the train to proceed. That might not be a requirement if it is pushing on the rear, except it can’t go back down the hill yet because the Gotham Limited is due in 15 minutes also climbing the grade. Now the helper had better get out out of the way fast. For short helper districts the pocket track is all that is needed. For longer districts a wye might be built instead to turn the helper.
The locomotive runs light down to the bottom of the grade to join its assigned train. Freights are not always adhering to a rigid schedule so the helper is now more than likely going to have to wait. If the practice is to push from the rear, it will have to clear the main track to allow the freight to get past. Even if it helps on the head end, there still has to be provision for other traffic to get by while it is waiting. As above, a pocket track or w
A lot of it depends on era. Modern era, when helpers aren’t necessarily used that frequently, yes they might put a couple engines out there in a spur. The UP will do that occaisionally when its snowy or icy fro trains coming into KC out of Osawatomie and on Kirkwood Hill coming into St Louis.
Even in the steam era if the helper grade was near a major terminal, then the servicing facilities would be in the terminal and they would just run an engine out to to the base of the hill.
In the diesel era you might have helpers downgrade to add dynamic braking.
I can see and understand a lot of the pro and con points here but I think it’s too broad of a question to have a definite yes or no answer. If the grade in question that required the use of a helper was far enough from the engine facility that it wouldn’t be practical for them to keep runner back and forth for every train that required a helper then sure it may be feasible as well as practical for the railroad to install a helper pocket and back in the steam era perhaps even a water tank as well.As to weather it is 100% prototypically correct that would depend on what railroad, what era what location on that railroad etc.I think one would be hard pressed to prove that it wasn’t prototypical
the spur i am talking about is at the base of 1 grade before the line goes into staging. my theory behind maybe using this area is i have real estate for very small service area. if i use this spot one would be led to believe that the helpers tack on at the base of the grade then the train enters the tunnel into staging then emerges at the other end of the layout where the grade begins again. i model chessie system in the late 80s i f this helps.i guess the spur may serve 2 uses. when i am running mainline trains it could be used as a helper pocket but when i run the local the locos would not be there hence the spur could be switched as the industy. i am not sure it it would work that way tho.
In the 1980’s it is very unlikely to be a service area there. Power would be swapped out by setting out or picking up units. A helper engine would need to be serviced maybe once a week, so they would just swap units. Or they would fuel the engines with a truck.
On a layout plan I deveoped, there is a small locomotive servicing yard (turntable, enginehouse, fueling, sanding, watering facilities, etc.) as the layout is to simulate a mid-twentieth century railroad with a mix of steam and diesel locomotives. The service yard is just before entering staging but it represents a location approaching the grade. Since the facility is located at the maximum track elevation on the layout for the line, it is intended to model only the addition, return, and servicing of helpers. Obviously the helpers aren’t needed to move the modeled trains, but I like the action and the chance to make use of otherwise “excess” inventory of locomotives.
Mark
At Gallitzin, PA, the Pennsy incorporated “a helper-turn-around wye” at the summit between Altoona at the East Slope and Johnstown at the West Slope, and; the helper-wye is still used by the sucessor Norfolk Southern.
Here are some links:
Gallitzin #1 (at MSRMaps).
Gallitzin #2 (at MSRMaps).
AR Tower at the Wye (at North East Rails).
Gallitzin Tunnels Webpage (at North East Rails).
Helper base of operations were at the PRR’s Hub in Altoona at the base of the East Slope. In its heyday, this section of the Pennsy was a heavy-duty Class I - 4-track mainline. The reason for all of this was the Horseshoe Curve.
Actually in the diesel era you won’t need a servicing area…The helper unit(s) would be refueled by a local fuel dealer by contract and bagged sand would be added by laborers or the crew by hand.This eliminates the cost of having to maintain a servicing area and the required union jobs according to work agreements by job class…