This is a Question I have pondered as it doesn’t seem to make a difference but maybe that is because my ballast is only a few grains deep as the contouring came from different materials.
Depends on your water - really. In my harea we have very hard water, and the old trick of a drop or two of dish soap int he water to make it ‘wet water’ and flow betetr absolutely positively does not work - if I use tap water. Instead I dilute the glue with 70% isopropyl alcohol. You cna tell when it’s good or needs a wettign agent - when you drip the glue/water mixture ont he ballast is should soak right in like you are drippign it on paper towels. If it sits on top - when it dries you will have nothing but a hard shell over loose ballast, like a Klondike bar. Not good. If it soaks right down in, then you are good to go, if it puddles, you need a wetting agent, either a drop or two of soap or some alcohol.
–Randy
There are several schools of thought on this. I ballast a little differently then most where I used to paint my ballast shoulders with straight white glue first and then sprinkle on ballast. I let the ballast set up over night then sprinkle on my ballast over the ties and spread it out to my liking and then with an eye dropper add 70% Isopropyl alcohol wetting agent and then my glue also with an eye dropper. By doing this the ballast shoulders help lock in the ballast and keep it form running off the shoulders I no longer use 50/50 white glue and water ix for my ballasting how ever if you want to save a little money it’s perfectly fine to paint the ballast shoulders with straight white glue. and use Matt Medium on the tie covered ballast. The Matt Medium does a much better job as it doesn’t dry rock hard like white glue and does not transmit sound like white glue does.
It depends on the thickness of the glue solution, and probably a bit on what is being used as a glue, but also on the type of ballast material. I found out that the Woodland Scenics material is often dyed walnut shell bits. It likes to float in water and aqueous solutions. Also, if there is surface tension, the dribbled glue will simply form balls and roll off the side of the carefully groomed ballast. As it does this, it picks up grains of the walnut shell and ruins your grooming.
The wetting process breaks the surface tension on the grains of ballast, whatever you are using. The dribbled glue solution that follows soaks in much more quickly, disappearing almost instantly, and long before it has a chance to bead and do the tuck and roll.
Crandell
I also have found that painting white glue on the shoulder helps in the overall/ final ballasting. This also helps to conserve that “precious” product as you now have a stop or dam @ the profile. Diluting the glue or matte medium w/ water and alcohol works well also.
Never knew that a high mineral content would almost render the “wet water” by detergent useless or ineffective. Good to know. I do use a considerable amout of wate/ alcohol and maybe this is why I have not noticed any difference.
It’s the same thing that makes it harder to get clothes clean, or to get that soapy feeling off yourself in the shower, when you have hard water. My first attempt at ballasting on a test section I made off the layout resulted in the crust effect - at first I couldn’t figure out why the diluted glue wasn’t soaking in like it should, then I realized I mixed it using regular tap water. That’s when I hit upon using alcohol, and it worked perfectly. I didn’t have a sealed container for the mix, and the enxt day the leftover was still liquid, at least int he morning - so I guess there’s that, too, glue/alcohol stayed liquid longer evern when exposed to air. I’m not sure why this would be, since the alcohol should evaporate off faster than water. Must be a reaction with the PVA glue. But the ballast on the test section was dry and solid and did not flake off when touched.
–Randy
I have been using Scenic Cement and it just wicks into the WS ballast on my test areas, no crusting at all. I apply it with a pipette. Even in my glue and water days I never had a problem (could it be the quality of the water, ours legally doesn’t even need to be treated or screened by federal standards.
Well, the Scenic Cement is pre-mixed and ready to use. Convenient, but more expensive (usually) than mixing your own.
–Randy
I only paid around $5 per bottle and just checked the price and it is $5.59 per bottle. A bottle goes a long way as I only use it for ballast and applying foliage.
why not try doing a short piece of track using each method and see which one you like best? you might waste 5 or 10 minutes in the process.
grizlump
As Randy stated, 70% 0r 90% alcohol is the best wetting agent. I usually spread my ballast (dry) between the rails and the sides of the rail. Then I’ll take a one inch brush and lightly brush the dry ballast until it is uniformally spread between the ties.
My next step is to fill an old elmer’s glue bottle with alcohol and then liberally drizzle it onto the ballast ensuring that it is soaked completely through. I usually soak about a foot of track at a time so that the alcohol doesn’t evaporate before applying the dilute glue. ( If the alcohol doesn’t penetrate all of the ballast, once it dries, it will crack and then separate from the ties in big chunks. )
My final step is to mix elmer’s glue 50% water / 50% glue and 2 drops of dish detergent and then drizzle it over the alcohol soaked ballast. Once it’s dry it’s not going anywhere.
Another advantage using the alcohol / dilute white glue technique is that if you need to take up a turnout or a section of track, all you have to do is drizzle alcohol over the dried ballast and it will immediately soften and come up with ease…chuck
Nothing is really necessary in this hobby. You find what works best for you and do it.
I find, however, that if I don’t wet the ballast (with “wet” water) first, that a lot of it floats around on the diluted matte medium mixture that I use to secure my ballast. If you don’t find that this is a problem, perhaps you don’t need to wet before you glue.
The other thing you should make sure of is that your adhesive mixture wicks completely into the ballast. If not, the first time you poke it hard, the surface crust will break and the ballast will go everywhere. Maybe this isn’t a problem for you, though, if your ballast layer is as thin as you say.
That’s why I asked the question as I have a lot to do and only did little bits before and it just wicks into the ballast, no float even though I use WS ballast.
rrebell,
I think you answered your own question in your original post in which you remarked, “This is a Question I have pondered as it doesn’t seem to make a difference but maybe that is because my ballast is only a few grains deep as the contouring came from different materials”.
The fact that your ballast is only a few grains deep is probably the reason that you do not need a wetting agent before gluing to prevent pooling.
I have tried all kinds of methods over the last 7 years as I ballasted sections of my layout with a 162 foot double mainline. In my experience, the best, and only truly reliable, wetting agent is undiluted 70 percent isopropyl alcohol. “Wet water”, tap water with a few drops of liquid dtergent added, is a poor second choice, in my opinion.
The best glue for ballasting, again in my opinion and my experience, is a 50/50 mix of matte medium and water.
Rich
Very good, thanks for all the input, especially the one’s who have done it and had it hold up for many years. One thing of note in case any viewers are not aware, unlike other rumors of their products being made of various things, Scenic Cement is really matt medium already diluted, so why do I use it instead of my own as it is more expensive, because they have worked on the formula and came up with what they think is the perfect combo and probably (no I don’t know for a fact) that they use distilled water.
All I can suggest is what has worked for me, 25% white glue, 25% rubbing alcohol, and 50% water, mixed in a spray bottle, the spray gives an even coating, the alcohol allows the mix to wick into the ballast. you could increase the alcohol content but I found it doesnt really make much of a difference, too much alcohol and the glue doesnt want to dilute, it just clumps together.
I would also suggest a test strip, a peice of flex on a 1x board, and try different mixes suggested to find what works best for your conditions.
My current layout, which was started in 1983, was built with homabed roadbed over plywood. The ballasting was done with an old glue bottle (with glue removed) and I used a mixture of dilute white glue, water, and a pinch of detergent. The ballast was sprayed with water with alcohol, and it has held up very well. Also easy to remove for track changes.
But, do it the way you are most comforable with.
Bob
Bob, did you use no glue at all in the mix…or did you mistype?
This is all very interesting. I just started to ballast my track 2 weeks ago and tried various techniques, not unlike many already mentioned. First, I paint a fairly thick layer of white glue about 12 inches long to one side of the WS Foam Track-Bed from the outside edge of the ties down to the base of the roadbed. Using an old plastic squeeze ketchup dispenser with a pointed tip I pour out the ballast. I spread the ballast and tamp it into the glue with a disposable brush (Micro-Mark #15139). I repeat the same process on the opposite side of the track. Then, using my ketchup dispenser, I spread some ballast between the rails and smooth it out with the brush. I don’t spread any white glue between the rails since gravity holds the ballast in place. Since I used to develop my own film I have some Kodak Photo-Flo which I use for my wetting agent - a few drops mixed in water. I spray mist this over the ballast and immediately apply the Scenic Cement with a Bellows Applicator (Micro-Mark #60363A). This gives me the best control for applying the Scenic Cement. As already mentioned by others, without the wetting agent, the Scenic Cement may puddle on top of rather than flow into the ballast.
I agree that if your tap water is lousy with dissolved minerals that you probably should use distilled water rather than your tap water. Even heavy chlorination will kill it (although this can be solved by letting the water sit uncovered overnight, which will allow most of the chlorine to evaporate). Otherwise, distilled water is an unnecessary expense.
I have used both wet water and isopropyl alcohol, and they both work equally well. Of course, I have well water which is run through a reverse osmosis filter, so it’s pretty nearly distilled quality. This choice, as well as the WS Scenic cement vs. homemade matte medium solution, is generally one between convenience and cost. Much cheaper to make your own, but it’s more effort.