The reason i am asking is simply because i am by nature an O gauger at this point, but plan on making a multi scale Xmas layout with O and HO. I plan on purchasing DCS, which is MTH’s version of command control, and just noticed that they are making HO trains now, and that they claim that their HO trains will run off of the same DCS they use for O guage. This intrests me because it would save me the price of purchasing a dedicated DCC unit.
So is anyone using DCS to controll their MTH HO locos? Does anyone here even have an ho MTH loco, and if nyone knows a bit about it, does MTH offer “decoders” of their own that can be put into other HO locos so that it works with the DCS???
MTH has a following, although I am not able to quantify it. I would say that is has a very small share of the HO market. The central objection when you ask a modeller why is that so many of us have embraced the DCC method of operating engines, while MTH has resorted to a proprietary software and system. While there isn’t anything inherently wrong with that, if the system precludes operation on the DCC systems extant in thousands of homes across the continent, it kinda makes the whole thing moot…doesn’t it?
Model Railroader offered an opinion on the MTH Pennsy K4s and liked it, as far as I can tell. They did suggest, in a way, that the DCS vx. DCC obstacle was going to be a showstopper in many people’s minds.
Again, those who have them like them very much. You should also know that there is some considerable residual hard feelings over the litigaton between them and QSI a few years back. While individuals in HO and N may have slightly divergent opinions, as a group expression on several threads over the past four years on this forum they have tended to downplay MTH’s entry to HO, and certainly are somewhat bitter over their play against Lionel and QSI.
The MTH locos do work on DCC in case you don’t know that. Where I operate one of the people has the K-4 and it is great! If they made any NJT models I would buy it!
Selector… your post was a little over my head, as i dont know much about DCC either, and i belive your post was a little political for me, as i may not be un to date on everything that has happened. Just trying to get a few ideas, as like i said, im making an xmas layout, and it would be more cost efficeints and more convinient to be able to operate both the HO and O locos with one remote.
Does MTH only have 2 HO locos out? I went on their site and all i found was the K4 and a triplex…???
MTH only has the two locomotives so far: The Pennsy K4 and, now, the 2-8-8-8-2 Triplex. It’s hard to say what further plans Mike Wolf has in store as far as HO is concerned.
MTH’s current offerings are quality units and very nice looking. If you are into smoke, the smoke units are second to none and VERY impressive to see in action.
No problems. I was merely offering you a rich answer based on my understanding fleshed out with some historical context. I suppose I could just as well have left it as, no they don’t have a large footprint in the HO side of the house.
While the MTH engines run okay on DCC, the DCC systems cannot operate all there is about the MTH locos’ capabilities. This in effect forces a choice for the modeller, and all I can say, without any editorializing at all, is that the impression I get from those who talk about it here is that they don’t choose to purchase MTH engines as a result. MTH must be selling them or else they would not have gone on to offer the Triplex.
Perhaps someone else will offer another opinion or more information.
I brought this up on another forum (OGR) as there is a large DCS following there.
One of the members there, dave hikel, had this to say on the topic, which actualy sounds very promising.
"I have two of the HO K4’s and an Erie Triplex on order. The K4’s are the best HO runners I have. I run them in both DCS and DCC. They do indeed have all the fine features we’ve come to expect in DCS engines.
Chuck, I asked Andy E about MTH offering upgrade kits for HO locomotives recently. He said they indeed will offer kits with dual mode decoders (DCS and DCC) once they release their first HO diesel locomotives. They’re designing an even smaller decoder that will fit in narrow hood HO diesels, which will be the decoder offered in the upgrade kits. That way they can offer the same electronics that will fit in the maximum number of locomotives in a single kit.
Personally, I know several people who are really looking forward to these upgrade kits. I’m building a large layout for one of my clients who has collected 80+ PS2 and TMCC engines. He also has a few brass and Bachmann On30 locomotives which are prime candidates for PS3 upgrades. He’s in the same position as 92hatchattack. Why buy a DCC system to run a few locomotives when you already have DCS? It’s the same for most people in HO. Why buy DCS when everything else you have is DCC?
They released the K4’s about 18 months ago. They’re definitely doing more. When Mike visited my LHS this Summer he said they would be announcing/delivering five new HO locomotives (steam, diesel, and electric) throughout '08. The Triplex is the first of those engines."
MTH will do fine if they continue to offer models that the hobby world is waiting for and not offer a model that the market already has. Their first HO model was announced about the same time as BLI made their K4 announcement and the BLI K4 was on the market a least a year prior to the MTH becoming available. That made a slow start for the first MTH HO product and many of the sales and blow out sales for the BLI K4 saturated the market. However, the Triplex is a model that probably will sell well since the only previous HO versions are in brass. I was surprised by that selection, but it probably will do well.
The version of the Triplex for the Virginian Road is not accurate and mostly incorrect, but they are going to offer it with the Virginian name anyway. The Erie looks to be fairly close to the pictures in the Baldwin book. The two Triplex engines had different sized drivers and the tenders were completely different. One was a 2-8-8-8-2 and the other a 2-8-8-8-4. The boiler size of the Virginian was much larger and its 63" drivers compared to the 57" on the Erie make a big difference if the real ones a
#1 scale is almost sometimes called (maybe more often) G scale or G gauge. #1 gauge has a 45mm track gauge while it can be used for a number of scales. 1:32, 1:29, 1:22.5 and 1:20.3. I think that’s the major ones.
As others have said, MTH is not a “player” in HO scale. IMHO (with near 100% probability) they will never be one as long as they insist on installing DCS. They would probably be better off if they made straight DC locos rather than trying to force their DCS into the HO marketplace.
IIRC (and it’s been awhile), MTH’s DCS system will not operate DCC decoders. Also, IIRC, DCS decoders are not very modifiable with the CV’s. In HO scale, we’re used to setting all the different sound volumes independantly, or even changing the sounds themselves by downloading new sounds for the chip. I don’t believe DCS offers much of that (but corrections welcome).
Oh, and another reason why HO folks don’t like MTH (besides the Lionel lawsuits) is the patent infringements Mike has threatened DCC makers with about BEMF and other control items. He also launched “attack ads” in the modeling press that were anti-BLI when the K-4 came out (you’d never see Atlas attacking Athearn). Sure, Mike did a lot of good by getting UP to back down over licsensing, but let’s not forget all the harm that he has done (or is trying to do), either.
Or, IOW:
“Dear Mike,
Thanks for making UP see the light. Now go stick to O-scale, and leave HO alone.” -me
Why is it that you claim the downfall of MTH ho is that they install DCS, when they claim that there locos can also be controlled by any DCC system right out of the box. This i do not understand.
I am not a DCS pro, nor do i even have one yet… But i do belive that in their O gauge market, there are downloadable DCS sound packages… i remember reading something on it i think … but dont quote me on that.
I will be honest, i dont really give a crap about lawsuits or any of that crap. These are toy trains, or model locomotives… and they are either for fun, or a serious hobby… but in no way am I going to take my love for trains and turn it into a political battle… I just run the trains
Paul, with respect, I think you are mistaken about the DCS/DCC issue. It is not that DCS can’t run DCC…it surely can. In fact, it is MTH’s claim or trump over DCC. Rather, it is that DCC architecture and software can’t run DCS nearly as well.
However, for your asker gentleman, as I have already stated, while the culture observed the court battles that as a group we felt were frivolously launched by MTH, all the while stifling the availability of BEMF in QSI decoders, droves of us went on to purchase DCC systems because the accompanying decoder offerings became more attractive with price.
Think of the old Beta vs. VHS wars between Sony and JVC back in the late 70’s if that applies to you. Sony lost, and the world used VHS for a couple of decades. This is what has happened to MTH. They closed the door after all but one or two stable stalls had been vacated. Modellers in droves bought strictly DCC systems, while DCS became relegated to other larger gauges/scales.
So, I hope you won’t still feel that it is political with me…I am merely relating what I understand, and don’t personally care one way or the other. In fact, if MTH were to prevail and begin to offer other Pacific type steamers, a CNR/GTW Northern with the streamlining, a Harriman locomotive of almost any description for one of our lamenting member’s sake, and others, and make it so that DCC systems currently paid for an used would also operate the DCS systems onboard, he would find that he becomes much more competitive in the market.
No need to get upset. One of the points made above is that with a DCC controller, a modeler will still not be able to access all of the features in an MTH HO unit, cut and dry. Yet, to access all of the sound features on a Soundtraxx or QSI equipped locomotive you can use a mid or high end Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, Zimo, etc.
If you’re curious about what happened with the MTH/DCC controversey, here is the thread I posted a few years back.
To be fair, I do hope that MTH will eventually become a very positive contributor to the HO/N markets, but the price tag of the DCS system and locomotives puts it beyond the hobby budgets of many modelers.
JMHO, I think the main body of HO modelers are somewhat cautious about MTH’s long term presence in the HO market. Will they be another Lionel? Now you see 'em now you don’t? Their K4 was a long, long, long time in coming to market. With the announcement of the Triplex maybe MTH is taking an approach of offering the HO modeler unique not heretofore produced models. I know when I look at their website they have a cornucopia of unique large scale offerings. Only time will tell whether their commitment is long term enough to allow them to become a profitable player in HO.
Maybe MTH will take note of this forum’s recently posted wish list of unproduced models and respond to same.
Here is my guess. If MTH puts out a few engines that people really have been longing for but haven’t be able to buy I think they might steal a share of the market. I know for sure that if they released a EM-1 they would at least sell me some which would open up my eyes to this particular company. I think that we all have a tendency to have a bit of brand loyalty, I for one will choose PCM/BLI given that everything else is equal in comparison to other brands.
Are the DCS systems sold for O and HO fully compatible? I remember reading somewhere that an O scaler was not able to use their O DCS system with the MTH HO models. Perhaps this related to an older version of DCS not being compatible with the latest HO version?
If I were to purchase an MTH HO DCS control system, can I run my DCC equipped locomotives on the track at the same time as controlling DCS equipped locomotives?
LOL… im not getting upset in the least… just trying to understadn both sides of the argument.
From what im gathering from all of this, is that for use with my mixed scale (O/HO) Xmas layout DCS is probaly going to be my best option, being that i will be running MTH O gauge locomotives and DCS already. This, depending on the fact that they do indeed hopefully release more locmotives in the future.
BUT, if i was goint to be building a HO model railroad, i think i would need to go with DCC at the moment, mostly because there alot more motive power choices in DCC then i think there will ever be from MTH. … But once again … if MTH were to offer a DCS upgrade that could be installed into other manufactures locos… id have to think about it.
I guess it all comes down to how much each feature is worth to you, and if you want to shell out for an additional system.
I cant think of any reason so far the an HO modeler would want to swich to DCS instead of DCC. It surely doesnt make sence, and MTH will have a very hard time convincing people to make the switch. What i can see is MTH taking over and O guages that already own DCS but still davel in HO as well… Why would they buy DCC when they could use MTH HO locos with their existing setup? The question for MTH is can they drag enough of their Oguages into the HO world as well?
I was told on another forum from a member that he was able to operate both of his O gauge and HO gauge trains using DCS with just a single TIU. I dont really think MTH has a seperate HO DCS… i think that the same unit will serve both gauges.
Are you asking if u can use both the DCC and DCS systems at the same time??? This is a good question… will the systems interfere with eachother?
