I believe the question about my #1 scale was answered, but the 4-6-6 4 Challenger and the 4-8-4 Dayllight are in #1 scale or 1/32 scale. Compared to HO at 1/87 or to O scale at 1/48, they are very large. They are indeed large and interesting since they are big and heavy. They normally are used outside since they require major sized curves, but I do not have an outside track. Both of mine have every light including markers, number boards headlight, Mars light for the Daylight and the cab light lit and the sound is great. All of the lights are controlled by their own function and the DCS has those options. When you can use a speker size of 3’ to 4", the sound is much better.
The DCS I own will not run HO the way it is configured. I have been told by MTH it will not work but I have been told by others now it can be upgraded. MTH has not responded to my question so I have no idea if my system can be upgraded or not. I still like the DCS for my large scale models and run them occasionlly just ot enjoy the sound, lights and the best smoke generators that exist on the planet. My Challenger has the double chuffing sound that runs in and out of sync and the smoke generator will actually chuff out twice on the double chuffs. You cannot image how great the sound and action is on these models.
My strong suspicion is no. That is why the DCC owners are staying away. They don’t want to have to invest in another operating system. They wonder why DCS isn’t fully compatible with their current stables of DCC engines such that the two signals could run each company’s decoders concurrently on a given layout. Instead, I don’t see how you can operate without running one or the other. If you run only DCS, you will get most or all of the DCC decoders’ capabilities, as I understand it. Not so the other way around. So why have a DCS-equipped engine when you can’t really get it to perform to capacity? Might as well stick to DCC engines and get the full use of them with their current $200-600 DCC systems that work just fine.
hi Crandell, been away for a while due to work commitments and the holidays back in the homeland. I have really not had any time for modelling for a couple of months.
I think you are correct. I don’t think DCS can run DCC other than to pass through DCC commands from a DCC system. I do not believe that you can run a DCC loco at the same time as you are running a DCS loco on a DCS controlled layout. Since the range of DCS equipped locos is very small and of a very narrow appeal, and since no other manufacturer makes DCS equipped locos the likelihood is that it will never have much appeal in HO.
I tire about the DCS/DCC incompatibility issues, its like Windows Vs. Linux Vs MAC.
Lets all get along somehow, huh?
I thought the O scale and HO DCS was NOT compatible. Note O Scale MTH is working along the lines of AC power, like the old Lionel 3 rail, I have no clue if their locos can run straight AC. HO is dominated by DC control.
Should I ever buy an MTH HO, if the DCS has trouble doing DCC, out goes their decoder.
I’ll put a true DCC in.
NO, MTH does NOT have a big HO offering, one loco now and then the triplex, 2 locos, lots and lots more from other vendors…
92hatchattack,
It isn’t whether or not DCS locos can be controlled by DCC systems, it’s that (apparently) DCC locos cannot be controlled by DCS. Waaaay back when MTH announced it’s HO entry, we had an MTH company rep. here on the forum. IIRC he stated that they had thought about supporting DCC locos on their DCS system, but decided it was too limited. So they snipped it out of their control system altogether. Now, that was several years ago, and maybe MTH’s DCS will now run DCC locos…but I’ve heard nothing about it since the time of the original discussion (mainly because MTH is currently irrelevant in HO scale and not too many people have an interest…present company excluded).
Again, IIRC, MTH’s sound variables are rigid. You get their sound package, take it or leave it. Meanwhile, for Digitrax, LokSound, QSI, SoundTraxx…heck, even MRC…all have customizable sounds to just about any degree. Want to put an whistle on a diesel? No problem with most modern DCC sound decoders.
As for the lawsuits, the Lionel one doesn’t much concern me (it’s not my scale). But MTH’s blatant attempts to corner the model railroad sound and digital control market ticks me off because it adversely effects my model railroading enjoyment in HO. For example, I can’t control my HO model trains by scale miles per hour because of Mike. Also, his “scare tactics” of sending threatening letters to other manufacturers that sent them all scrambling to prove that some of this stuff has been around long before MTH (as you can tell, the US Patent Office is so bad these days that one can probably get a patent on breathing). His Bi-Directional communication certainly sent the NMRA DCC Working Group into a lather.
The “politics” of Mike become part of the answer to your original question because so many non-O-scalers dislike MTH due to Mike’s heavy handed approach to the hobby.&nb
Paul, i belive you are correct in saying that the MTH ho locos can be run using DCS or DCC, but DCS WILL NOT control DCC equiped locos. I belive this stands this way still at this point.
Personaly, i hope they come out with a few more HO offerings (MTH) simply because it would become much easier for me and my muli scale xmas layout (one less comand base and one less controled)… But like i said before… If i do make an individual layout, i belive it will be in HO, and i will have to opt the way of DCC.
Paul, now that I go back and read the test article on pages 84-86 of MR’s Jly '06 edition, it isn’t so straightforward one way or another.
The final paragraph states that the test was conducted with an MTH 3-rail O gauge controller, but that MTH would sell an HO model that would let the operator run on DC, DCS, and that it will have a “pass through” mode for DCC users.
-Crandell
PS- but on the face of it, I think I’ll have to concede to you. [%-)]
I think Jon makes an important point. Besides the whole QSI lawsuit fiasco, MTH is an O manufacturer venturing into HO for the first time. I think a lot of people have a “wait and see” attitude. Their choice of a Triplex for their second HO engine makes one wonder if they understand the difference between HO model railroaders and O tinplate/high rail collectors. (That is, it seems odd to go thru all the work to produce a model maybe 1% of HO modellers could realistically use on their layout.)
Back tothe original question is MTH a player? Since they have made two models the answer is yes. Are they a major player? At this time no. Will they be a major player in the future? Who knows but probably not since they want to do things their own way and not follow the norm. With possibly as many as fifteen or twenty major producers in HO they are late to the party. Is there equipment reputable? Yes. Will they ever get any of my hobby dollars? Not unless they are 100% compatible with everything else I own and that doesn’t appear that it will ever happen. At least not in the near future.
Re-answering. I just wondered about MTH VS Lionel in train control, is there a DCC version for O scale? Do the Scale O scalers use DCC? Does Lionel use DCS? it makes me think the DCS issue is bigger than HO.
Its a proprietary thing…again, my way…or no way, attitude…
For O scale, MTH is fairly big with a lot of offerings, but they are not the only one out there. Thats what makes DCS a problem.
The success MTH has had in O scale and tinplate was because of a number of factors. Lionel had been through two or three owners and was not pursuing the market MTH has for the most part. MTH saw a market and was successful in providing models and a DCC system in a portion of model railroading that didn’t really have direction. This is the classic case of not understanding the market and jumping in with both feet assuming that the HO market conditions were identical to the Lionel market which I am sure they have found out that they are not. Since about 1940 the NMRA has attempted to develop standards and bring uniformity to the hobby with HO being the crowing jewel in the legacy. To attempt to do your own thing after sixty years of effort to standardize every aspect is risky. High risk equates to high reward or high failure. Can MTH be successful in HO? You bet. Adopt the industry NMRA standards and drop the DCS system from the HO market. Provide a compatible product and control system. Above all stop having people respond to any criticism by reading us what is on the box and about the “play” value of smoke, etc. It is a different market. Learn what drives it.
One section in your above comments that, to me, stands out:
"You bet. Adopt the industry NMRA standards and drop the DCS system from the HO market. Provide a compatible product and control system. "
Part of the “catch 22” for MTH is that a large amount of money has been invested into developing and improving the proprietary DCS system over the years. It’s a shame that in the beginning a strong bond was not established with the NMRA. I’m not an electronics expert, but I’m assuming that it would cost quite a bit to make the needed hardware/software changes in the DCS system in order to make it “completely compatible” with the current market DCC platforms. Will MTH head in this direction?.., especially now that there is far more competition in the DCC/sound market than there was back in 2000? Even now ESU-Lok Sound is developing a new generation of sound decoders that are more efficient and promise more robust sounds than the current lines. Likely safe to say that Digitrax and the rest of the competition are not sitting on their “keesters” content with the status quo.
Add to this, MTH’s “hot” selling point is the “sound system and synchronzed steaming effects”. While HO/N steam locomotives have gained popularity, so many of us model mostly diesels. Most HO scale modelers that are willing to shell out several hundred dollars for a locomotive also expect accuracy in dimensions and body detailing. Atlas, Athearn Genesis, and P2K have helped to raise the bar. So this is an area that MTH will have to really work on if a larger share of the market is desired.
Pardon me for sounding hopelessly confused about this DCC/DCS argument, but will the MTH HO locomoties run on just ordinary DC? I don’t care about the bells and whistles, just that they can be controlled by, say, my MRC Controlmaster 20.
You’ll have to consult their site for a definite yes or no, but as per the information available when MR tested their first offering, the MTH K4s, the answer is yes.
Tom, yes the Triplex will run on regular DC, no problem. I just got mine last Thursday and I must admit it is without a doubt the smoothest running HO scale locomotive I have seen. I am a straight DC guy so I can’t comment on how the DCS features work.
If anyone is interested, I can post a new thread with more details.
Thanks for the answers, friends. Now I’ve got another question. I’ve heard reports that the first driver set on the Triplex tends to ‘lift’ on curves because of not enough ‘give’ to the articulation. I’ve got 34-36" radius curves. Has anyone heard of or remarked on this problem?
There was a report in another thread about this problem. I believe it was the front steam pipe not being snaped in place. An easy fix. My engine was fine.
The biggest problem I see so far in my Triplex is that only two wheels are in gauge. The trailing truck wheelset was nearly a sixteenth of an inch out and derailed quite a bit going through frogs. Again, an easy fix. It just snaps out.
The drivers on the other hand are not so easy to deal with. However, the engine runs fine so I will leave them alone unless problems arise.
Call me crazy , but concidering the cost factor , and lets face it the rather large microscope anything HO made by MTH will be placed under by a lot of people,shouldn’t none of these problems be there.Sounds like a bit of a QC problem, not good on a model of this cost and level of “bells n whistles”.I mean shipping things from oversea’s from the assembly plants will pop the odd bit loose but I don’t know , I hope it’s just an oversight on a few models.
I have been noticing that MTH is releasing their large(er) scale steam engines in HO scale. Notice that the Triplex is offered in HO, and whatever other scale that they produce.
According to the (Nov??) MRR, they said that it will be one of 5 planned engines released within some peroid of time.
MTH makes a Yellowstone in their larger scale. Could this mean…oh, I hope so!!!