Because they work in small spaces, I have no problem with a 4% grade to my second yard. Like I said before, it depends on what you like to run. If you wand 80’ passenger cars then sticking closer to 2% would proubly be a good idea. Also keep in mind the distance at that %. My 4% is for around 2’ and then it goes to about 1% for another 3’ (had to do that for bridge clearance and an intersecting route).
I notice s curves mentioned too. The longer the car, the more that becomes a problem, it is no problem in 40’ cars, starts to be a problem with 50’ but only is the radius is small. There is an artical out there that addresses this with tests done, no speculation.
Gidday, I’ve been fence sitting but am liking how your plan is developing.
Regarding “S” curves as long as the track work is good and they’re “flowing”, especially with a 26” minimum radius, I don’t really see the problem.
Primarily I’m presenting this video to show you what a 4% grade on an 18” radius looks like, and while there is one “John Allen” track cleaning car adding extra drag in the short consist, those three locomotives, while not working hard, are not there merely for show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRl-PgC8Gdo
Have Fun,
Cheers, the Bear.[:)]
I must have been blind not to see it, my only excuse is that the track is “flowing” so nicely it didn’t jump off the page. I agree as long as there are easements into/out of the curves there it should be OK, but a spot to watch out for.
Did you perhaps miss this part of his plans?
“I am planning to run both freight and the large alskan Walthers Proto passanger cars.”
or maybe this disclaimer from Walthers?
“PLEASE NOTE: As these cars are the correct prototype length and feature full underbody detail to match the prototypes, a minimum 24” radius is recommended for operation"
Unfortunately, this plan depends on this S-curve as drawn to fit in the space available. There is no room for easments, and no option for a fix when the problem shows up other than tearing down most of the layout or giving up the long cars.
At a radius only 2" broader than what the manufacturer requires as the minimum, I do not believe these 85’ passenger cars will run reliably on this spot. IMO, either the S or the passenger cars has to go.
Well since nothing has been built yet I am going to go with redesigning the S curve, maybe I will just invade the space to the east of that blob and make it an easier transition
Carl425 how about if he moves the upper curve to the right a bit? Looks to me that it would help straighten out that S.
That’s an option. (assuming of course that he’s ok with moving everything that’s attached to it) Moving the center point of that curve 6" or so to the right should be enough to create the 12" straight that would accomodate the 85’ cars.
Or… you could just shift the whole layout counter clockwise into a shape like this:
Ok so i know that i mentioned before I wanted it to be a dogbone shape, and i possed this same question on the last thread I made before I rearranged things in the basement. It would make it much easier to figure out a plan completing the benchwork into a donut correct?
What are the pro’s and cons for this, and am i going to regret not doing this from the start.
My worries are 1). Coming to hate crawling under a table. (I am 6’4")
2). Not having any clue how to build a reliable liftout section. As a first timer to layouts this doesnt sound fun.
3). Not being able to just buy a lifout for a resonable amount of money. Under $100.
The Pro’s
1.) Not worrying about the blobs anymore and where they sit on the layout.
2.) Easily being able to run two mainlines if I chose
3.) Easier designing to weave one track over the other on the mainline. Have one crossover on the mainline and having it complete two loops around
for example
There are a couple fixes for this. You can move the layout up to chest height so it is a duck under and not a crawl under or you can set the layout height so you can sit on a wheeled stool and roll under.
You don’t need a liftout section. A simple drop bridge is fine and it’s easy to build. The Rehab my Railroad series on MRVP is one source for instruction. There are many others.
These are easy to build. Do not be afraid. You don’t have to buy one.
Pro #4 (which based on your operational desires should be #1) is that it is very easy to accommodate large radius curves so those passenger cars will not just operate without derailing, they will look good too. Think 36".
If you look at about the 4:40 mark of the video, you can see some of my Rapido coaches parked on the curve. If memory serves I think this is about a 32" radius curve and they look really cranked on that curve. They don’t look any better when they are moving on that tight of a curve. I think Carl is heading in the right direction trying to turn the blobs into more of a teardrop. If you think access hole in the middle of the teardrop, maybe you can come up with larger curves. On the right side perhaps you could bring the track right back to the back wall and have an access aisleway in the middle on that side.
In this photo, the passage way is 17" wide. I thought I would only use it to access my Captains chair in the centre of the room, however I fine myself spending a lot of time in that 17" space. I am 5’11" and in reasonably good shape so I can walk straight through there and stand and work in there with no issue’s. Also take a look at my access hole on the right. I can pop up there pretty easily as long as I do my hour on the bike every day. Access holes are preferred over duckunders in my book. I will eventually have a piece of removable scenery in there. Think Col. Hogan coming out of the stump in the woods.
I would however take a duckunder over small radius curves in a heartbeat. Just look at it as exercise.[(-D]
Your image so others can see it.
This is not drawn at all to scale, so it’s difficult to know what space you are working with now.
There are ways to accomplish what you want either as a dogbone or a doughnut.
Although others are suggesting that a lift- or swing-gate is trivial, for track at two levels and on different grades (as would be the case nearly everywhere on your doughnut), it’s a bit more complex. Not impossible, folks have done it. But not trivial, either.
Good luck with your layout.
Thanks cuyama for posting it, my work computer didn’t let me do it correctly. This is the same space as I have had before in the other photos. Batman thank you for the advice on ducking under. I am young and in shape so I guess I can deal with ducking under for this layout. I see what you mean with the passenger trains on your video. They don’t look that bad in my opinion just one of the things you have to deal with shrinking prototypes down I guess. But I can only imagine what they would look like on 26" curves. How difficult is it once you lay track to take out a piece and install a turnout to add on to the layout, I want to design this in stages so I can have trains operating in a full loop and yard and grow the layout organically, when I decide I want more
As long as the tracks are not directly on top of each other, you could build the easy version twice. If they are on top of each other, you could make one drop and one lift (lift is a little harder than drop, but not as hard as two tracks at different levels on one gate).
Fill in the “inlet” of aisle near the yard at the left with benchwork, lose the big loop with the S curve and connect the bottom of the loop directly with the darker line track at the yard throat. It will make the benchwork alot deeper, but you have open space to access the layout on the left.
Put a backdrop down the middle of the new leftside blob to make two distinct scenes, nice and deep. Put a tunnel portal near the corner carve out in the upper left where the track starts to double back on itself. You should be able to maintain access underneath the tunneled trackage until it reappears to the right as the benchwork gets narrow again. The hidden trackage should also help keep the scenes separated, making the yard scene more convincing.
This will also allow the grade to be a lot shallower on the entire left side of the layout, or maybe even no grade at all.
Ok guys, big redesign tonight.
I was thinking if i got the space i might as well try to make better use of it. I started not liking the way i would have to fix the dogbone by giving up space for my yard and other things. So here is the new plan. The mainline is in green with 36" minimum. This breaks off into three sections through the mountains one over them(26 in min) , one tunnel through them (32 in min) and the main skirting along the coast.
We now have a Coastal town in Alaska think (Seward) that sits on an inlet with a protected harbor (The operating circle). The small town will surround the dock area, that houses salmon boats, possibly a train ferry, and maybe an oil freighter. Oil will be brought in by a pipeline to a holding area to laod both rail and freighter. Also there will be a coal mine in the mountains.
Things I see that need to be fixed eventually, the inlets opening to the ocean. Where to put it so i can have straight track to put in a draw bridge over it to allow larger freighters through.
I am sure i have switches that dont transition well into curves or an S curve somewhere on the main. Please help me find them
Oh forgot to mention the benchwork is 30" wide all the way around.
What do you guys think?
Most folks will use a narrow section of benchwork to make ducking under easier.
30" would be too wide for me to reach to the back, but I’m not 6’4".
The black part of the plan needs a lot of work. Using that switchback arrangement for your yard will not work well operationally. Think about having built a train on one of those tracks and having to get it out onto the main. The angle on that yard ladder is way sharper than any commercially available turnouts. I’d redraw the black part to scale with scale sized turnouts.
Take a look at Riogrande5761’s posts with his layout pictures. He is building what is probably the optimum arrangement for a donut shaped layout. I don’t recall him having posted a track plan, but you can get the idea from his pictures.