Hello everyone,
I’m just wondering what people’s opinions are on train simulators.
My personal opinion is that simulators are excellent for those of us who might not have the resources to build a layout. I fall into this group. For me, it’s also proven to be a great planning tool, as well as when I was starting with ops and needed to get my head around it without ruining an actual ops session.
Feel free to disagree, just please keep it respectful.
Thanks,
Victoria
No thanks.
What gets me is, people that are “into it” this, post these cartoon like videos, thinking we are all amazed.
Do what you can Victoria, and what makes you happy. Last time I checked, it’s still a free world, but I’m not sure how long that will last.
Mike.
While I personally am not into virtual model railroading, I do understand why some people find it preferable. Being able to build an unlimited sized world, not requiring additional money, and being super portable.
Many of my fellow college railroad club friends choose to do this since they dont feel like transporting physical models back and forth between campus and home.
I understand their urges, but to me virtual model railroading seems more like a game and less an artform per se. Both are very good hobbys!
Charles
I tried a simulator years ago where you are the engineer of the train. I found it boring. I played Railroad Tycoon (the first one) for many hours and really liked it. I also have a Lionel simulator that presents you with toy track layouts (graphically on the floor) and switching problems that I really liked also. So I guess it depends on what interests you.
However, for me, none of these were the same as having an actual model railroad.
One thing to consider is a micro layout. The late Carl Arendt championed these and his site has been preserved here.
Paul
I suppose a micro layout is enough for someone who mainly enjoys switching. For me at least, I’m more drawn to mainline operation.
Of course, you’re right that any simulator isn’t the same as an actual layout. At least in my experience, however, it does provide an easy tool to test operations with different track arrangements and to come up with basic guidelines for building that actual layout. IMO, it’s better to test track arrangements in a computer than to build it then realize you screwed up. Planning on paper is nice, but it doesn’t give you the freedom to easily test operations.
Measure twice, cut once.
Hi Victoria,
I totally agree! Do what you can to enjoy the hobby, and pay no heed to the critics! I ‘played’ with 3rd PlanIt for years and I enjoyed every minute of it. Some of the early plans that I worked with were not realistic, but I have used the program to design two very functional layouts, one for my old club which is working successfully, and the second for my own layout which is under construction.
It took me 14 years to figure out how to build a layout that accommodates my back problems but I have finally solved the problem! My initial track plan has undergone many revisions but now I have something that I feel will suit my needs, thanks largely to a lot of valuable input from fellow forum members. The key to the whole process was 3rd PlanIt.
My point is that you should enjoy whatever you are doing in the way of modelling! You don’t need anyone’s permission to enjoy the hobby!
Cheers!!
Dave
No!
But then being a Railfan doesn’t necessarily make you a Model Railroader, either.
However, as you rightly allude too, some knowledge gained in the virtual world is translatable to the model railroad world.
Most importunately, Have Fun.
Cheers, the Bear.[:)]
We actually live in a world where modeling and simulation are converging. With cameras getting smaller and processing faster, it won’t be long that a nose cam becomes standard equipment on high-end locos. It’s output will offer a “skin” that can put the operator visually in the engineer’s seat in the cab, with a view of a proto-specific run that will project as the view from the windshield. The view will be selectively defeatable to allow the layout’s scenery a chance to fill in where present and acceptably life-like.
I don’t know.
There have been times when I had an operational layout that people told me I was not a Model Railroader because I was freelancing.
I try to avoid topics about what makes someone a Model Railroader, but… if these computer simulators require you to build something, even a virtual something… maybe?
-Kevin
Is virtual railroading also model railroading?
there is certainly a large overlap: trains need to be controlled, possibly following signals, controling turnouts, switching cars, operation
having worked on enabling remote operation at our club, i’ve wondered why not have a virtual layout that is controlled using the computer screens we use to follow the train and wifi throttle to control it.
but as someone (an EE) more interested in technical side of the hobby: electronics, software, wiring and control, i’ve tried polling people for what aspects of the hobby interest them most and found that most model railroaders are interested in building models.
i think it is one of the many niches within the model railroad hobby
IMO, it’s best practice to use terms which communicate what you are doing. Model Railroading communicates physical model trains, for display or for running/operatoins. Simulations are typically computer generated simulatoins of airplane flight or trains operations on a computer screen.
So if you want people to understand what you are talking about, it’s more clear to use terms people will understand. So from that standpoint, I’d say no, virtual railroading is not model railroading, it is railroad sim or simulation.
Now where is my staples button?
/that was easy.
Wargamers have this conversation a lot more often.
Is someone who plays Tanks six hours a day a wargamer?
I do not like these conversations, because they usually degenerate into what is a “real” hobbiest.
-Kevin
As one who was involved with simulators for about 10 years, I do not believe simulators are model railroading, there are points of overlap but a lot of differces also. What I realized is what they do not like is being thought of as a gamer, or that they are playing a game. I found I like working with my hands more than I do working/playing with a sim. all of the sims have limits, just different ones.
Mike
As long as you are enjoying yourself, it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks.
Free advice from Uncle Joe.[;)]
I have Microsoft Train Simulator which I found fun but I got tired on some operations and something more. Next I purchased Trainz Simulator 2010 after a few weeks I realized my computer didn’t have a nvidia drive. I still didn’t but one or finding out how to install in a existing computer. It’s been 10 years and I haven’t played it. I was going to put G.N.O. Railway in it before I get real models.
I prefer touching my trains. It’s more fun than sitting in front of a screen.
I didn’t realize this was going to turn into one of those existential questions about the hobby. I thought folks just wanted some facts.
Here’s two more.
Trying to define model railroading by actually building something is a bit dated in the age of RTR everything (almost.) Depending on that as a defining, differentiating factor would seem to exclude about 90% of those in the hobby at this point, putting aside any question of modeling vs simulation overlap angst.
It would seem that very few who’ve commented so far engage in operations, although that is a pretty strong interest in the hobby right now. It’s pretty hard to argue against operations on a model railroad as being a lot like most simulations.
The argument really would be more about how much convergence between the two has already happened rather than whether or not it exists, which it clearly does in several broad areas already.
That said, this is good advice if any of this involves an emotional attachment to a certain identity.
NO WAY!!!
Anyone who can accurately recreate a prototype via modding existing train simulators (such as the map editing functions in Train Simulator/Railworks) deserves some of the street cred of a model railroader since the skills required include:
In addition even those who aren’t prototype modeling but using mods to create fictional freelanced routes or even recreating model layouts in the digital world have some overlap with model railroaders. The skills are there, its just the transition from a digital media via coding and asset creation instead of scratchbuilding, kitbashing and painting that causes the art to be represented. I would say the term “modder” or “custom content creator” better accurately represents the digital creators, but it is worth celebrating that many of the base research skills are the same as a model railroaders; especially since the eye for detail research and operation design has to be the same for both projects. Its just trading in the paint brush for bits and bytes. I think many modders and content creators are aspiring model railroaders who due to lack of space or money have embraced the digital medium since its cheaper, and are waiting for a future time when they can invest in a physical model railroad.
As for operating pre-made simulator maps and locomotives (like I mostly do myself)… that is more comparable to the operators who visit model railroad op sessions but don’t have a model railroad of their own. Again, they might lack the skills that were required to set up the digital or physical railroad; but their operational
I remember the late Linn Westcot who usually tried to be open minded about teh hobby flatly saying that someone who bought everything and just ran it was not a model railroader. But he came from an era which defined and experienced the hobby very differently. And he had his own notions about the meaning of words, and I also recall him saying that a model which had any purchased parts on it was not scratchbuilt regardless of how much of it was in fact scratchbuilt. It was all or nothing in terms of definition. I think he later moderated that viewpoint but not by much.
Is someone a model railroader who has never built a model, has never bought any model, never had a layout whether built or ready made, but nonetheless is an avid and sophisticated and frequent operator on other people’s layouts, fully aware of all the complex rules of timetable and train order operation, can act as dispatcher or yardmaster of even the largest and most sophisticated layout, and immediately grasps the car forwarding system being used? I’d say they were railroaders who railroad with models, and thus are model railroaders. Others might differ, and say that railroading with models does not make you a model railraoder, modeling with railroad models makes you a model railroader.
My point, and I do have one, is that it is possible to imagine someone who loves model railroading and is the bestr there is at the operations side of it who themselves has nothing to do with making or even buying models.
I could also imagine someone who designs model train layouts superbly not being themselves a model maker or model builder. Would we allow them to say that model railroading was their hobby, or even their living?
I could further imagine that someone whose sole experience is with “virtual” model railroading gaining quite a bit of knowledge about layout design and practical operations should they ever go into the "nuts and bolts&
Both enjoy railroads but different hobbies.
Mike