Is Walthers done with steam?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
21

Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled…I just couldnt tell what had happened…till it was too late…Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me.

Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for.

22

Too bad if it’s true, my Proto 0-8-0 is one of the best running steamers I have ever seen.

23

I’ve have three of the Proto 2000 USRA 0-8-0s and they all ran beautifully right out of the box. Other than the 0-6-0, I didn’t find any other Proto steamers I was interested in. [:(]

Tom

24

John, do you mean to imply you have never had a problem with a brass loco?

My two Proto 2-8-8-2’s, two 0-8-0’s are without question great looking and great running.

Why would you not give a replacement product another chance? Do you take that position in real life? Like with automobiles?

I don’t have a Proto 2-10-2, can’t comment directly, but if it is anything like the 2-8-8-2 and the 0-8-0, I’m sure I would be happy.

Well, John, you seem to be the lone unhappy Proto steam customer…

I have 30 Bachmann steamers, Bachmann replaced a few duds, the replacements were all perfect…

And my two brass locos now have plastic tenders…from Bachmann, but then again none of my locos are stock out of the box…

And I’ve never sold any, so I don’t care about holding value. Not that there is likely a big market for 2-8-8-2’s, converted to 2-8-8-0’s and lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL. I doubt my PFM Pacific with its Bachmann tender has much resale val

25

I am sure my reply will just be blown right over as they usually are. Here are my 2 cents. My kids were raised with Jerry Joes steam on the Ohio Central. I was raised on steam when I was a kid. All of my kids ran on many trips on a Saturday out of Sugarcreek. What better thing is there (then) in Ohio? Run over to Amish county, get some cheese, meat and sodas. And take a trip behind the 1551 or 1293. Kids today no longer have this chance. Jerry quit doing this well over a decade ago. Heck, they even got to ride behind the GTW 6325 when he had it running. Ok, enough of that, it is just whipping a dead horse, as they will never return to Sugarcreek like that. A few years back, we took my son in law and oldest daughter to CVSR to ride behind the 765. My son in law had never seen a steam engine in his life. He is now hooked. That is part of the problem, todays generation has no idea what a steam engine is. I am just thankful NS lets the 765 use their tracks to Bellevue, then the 765 takes over on the Wheeling. If Walthers quits making steam, it is not our fault! Us Geezers know what steam is and we are kicking the bucket everyday. Todays generation and the last few, grew up with Diesel. So, they will model what they see and grew up with, I guess. I grew up in the Diesel generation but I rode steam from coast to coast. Todays middle class, hell, they cant afford vacations. Both parents have to work just to feed their kids. So, I guess the demise of steam is economics. Families just cant afford to run to Wyoming, or Pennsylvania, Indiana, to spend well over a 100 bucks to ride behind these engines that are still running, and the kids have no clue about them. Plus they all have phones and every other electronic devise in front of their faces now. Off the soap box, like it did any good.

26

BLI’s T&P 2-10-4 is a design that was also used by CGW, and I believe CGW also used USRA Mikes.

Most L&N modern power was based on USRA designs (0-8-0’s, light and heavy 2-8-2’s, 4-6-2’s, and 4-8-2’s), and these have been available from many sources. The running gear and boiler of the NKP 2-8-4 is correct for an L&N M-1, but you would need to do a lot of work on the details and tender, in much the same way that Casey does to get his Wooten-equipped engines. A lot of work, but worth it.

To make these engines truly correct for these roads, you might have to make some mods, depending on your skill level and your determination to conform to the prototype. But it’s quite possible, and that’s what is needed for a lot of prototype roads, if those are the prototypes you really want.

Short of brass, those are your options. It’s just not reasonable to expect the manufacturers to build models of everything. If we are modelers, we can do some model building.

Tom

27

Is Walthers done with steam? I doubt it. Athearn didn’t make steam for decades, yet they’re making it now. Markets change, and if Walthers feels that enough demand has built up for their steam, they’ll make more.

Is steam modeling dying out? Nope. Look at Athearn, BLI, Rapido, Bachmann, MTH, InterMountain and a few others that keep making it. They wouldn’t if it didn’t sell.

Doughless,
Just because something sells out quickly doesn’t mean it’s more popular than something that doesn’t sell out as quickly. I know, I know, it sounds wrong, but we just don’t know the amounts of product made in the first place. Say they make 3000 copies of a modern car and 5000 copies of a transition era car; the 3000 modern cars disappear quickly, but the 5000 cars takes a little longer. Which was more popular?

ATSFGuy,
There were over 150 Class I steam railroads in the USA. It takes time to go through all those, and oddly enough, Walthers wants to make the most money they can. Selling ATSF, UP, PRR, etc., is like printing money vs. more localized roads.

Sheldon,
You’re one of the few people that models a home road. The majority of modelers today don’t create their own railroad, they model a real one. In days of yore, modelers had to create fictional roads because that’s the only way they could justify running PRR K-4’s with UP 4-6-6-4’s alongside B&M P-4’s and IHB 0-8-0’s. There was no way to really model just one railroad without buying brass.

Do you know what’s more frustrating than pre-ordering? Not being able to pre-order because it doesn’t exist. When I was a kid getting into the hobby “seriously” when I was 15, I really, really wanted a NH I-5 4-6-4. When I finally found one at a train show a year later, it was $500…in 1991! That’

28

The Santa Fe had Texas types the outside of the loco are almost identicle to the CGW Texas types, closer than the T&P.

29

Paul, only one comment, I also model three prototype roads…B&O, C&O, WM. I freelance becauee it is fun to create a plausable what if. I don’t have any UP locos lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL.

Sheldon

30

Or a parent cant afford to take there kids on vacation because they are paying exorbatant child support and can only afford a cracker box apartment with no room for a layout either. While you or I may wish for the good ol days when you actually had a two parent house hold that was the average family, it isnt the norm anymore. Heck. I just heard on npr today that the number of singles out numbers marrieds.

Is and was about economics. While I agree, steam was and is cool, after diesels where perfected, correct me if I am wrong, steam cost too much to continue to operate, so RRs retired their steam as soon as was practical. So of course, yes, economics. And cars and airplanes killed most passenger ridership as well.

Not in outward terms no, but it did let you vent, so that is a little good for you. [C):-)]

Now go ask Alexa (Amazon Echo) to play Good ol days by The Judds!

31

Yes I realize that and I chose my words carefully. I wasn’t saying that the quick sell out at MSRP or higher prices was a sign that the more modern equipment was overall more popular, what I said was that the supply of these products are not meeting the demand for them.

In your example, both products best equilibrium between supply and demand might be 3500 units for one and 4500 units for the other, or 4000 apiece. Given finite production resources, expanding the run of one product most likely takes away from the run of the other. Overall, if a company can sell those 8000 total units quicker than before and at higher margins, they will adjust their product mix.

Its all speculation of course, but maybe Walthers sees this and is sacrificing steam production for a while to expand the production of something else.

32

It is interesting that we seem to hear about more items that Walthers has canceled or are no longer supporting than those items that are being produced on time and with good quality. It appears they are feeling around for a direction. Hopefully that is all that it is. Maybe they know something we do not. The model manufacturing landscape is so dynamic today, you product can be antiquated before the first one is completed.

33

I agree…my first thought was that it looked unfinished. At least it wasn’t a locomotive that I needed .

That’s true lately, but all of the Proto steamers I’ve seen came with undersize pipe: apparently the die makers weren’t aware that pipe sizes refer to the inside, not outside, diameter.
I did buy a Proto 0-8-0, and while it ran very nicely (it was the version without tender pick-up), it wasn’t a very good puller. I was going to get rid of it, but took it apart to see if I could add any weight to it in the hope of gaining a little more oomph from it. After removing the lighting circuit board and the flywheel, I was able to cram some lead into those vacancies and performance was improved. In fact, it improved enough that I reworked it completely to match photos of a CNR protptype. This involved lowering the running boards, lengthening the loco’s frame on both ends, and completely re-detailing it, including all new piping. The new air tanks (lead-filled brass tubing) added to the pulling power, too.
This one eventually suffered from the cracked gear issue, but I was able to repair it, and eventually got a new gear, free of charge, from Walthers. I’ve kept the repaired one, too, just in case.

After that, I looked for a Proto 0-6-0, but couldn’t find one at a reasonable price. I later got this bras

34

Not to my eyes. The dimensions of the prototype CGW locos were copied from those of the T&P locos. Lima built both groups, and their cosmetics were the same in many respects. The Baldwin-built Santa Fe 2-10-4’s had larger drivers, bigger boilers, and a totally different look. But if you think they look the same, I see no point in saying any more.

Tom

35

I wonder if some of those countless surveys are slowly getting out-of-date as those who remember steam are getting fewer and fewer now. And a recent survey by the NMRA region I would guess to be skewed toward steam from the lengthy discussion about the NMRA in some forums including MRH forums; the make-up evidently of the membership appears to be lots of really old guys and not much younger people.

Point being that while interests have historically been very strong for steam/diesel transition era, that appears to be changing, and it is logical considering the demographic related to steam is fading away. Some polls suggest that the first/second generation diesel transition era (1960’s and 1970’s) is starting to take over as a popular era of preference. I’m seeing increased production of products that cater to that time frame such as lots of Tangent freight cars and Moloco to name a couple and lately Wheels of Time and Trainworx have been catering very strongly for that time period in N and even HO. Other manufacturers offer more of a mix including modern, and everything in-between modern and transition.

Sure, we all have our bias’s and it naturally colors the spectacles we view the hobby and industry, and colors the way we comment about it. But there are factors out there which also point to logical changes afoot such as the changing of that sells and what time periods in RR history. Modern has always had a certain timeless popularity be cause people want models of what they can go out and see. But what sells from past era’s logically changes over time.

36

Do an image search on google for both types CGW’s Texas looks totally different than the T&P.

37

A few more thoughts,

Jim, I know your not a steam guy, but fact is the “plastic/diecast” steam reniassance is more like 20-25 years old now. There was more available variety 10 years ago than there is today.

Athearn, Proto, Intermountain never offered much variety, but did add to the selection.

Bachmann, while not perfect, easily offered the widest selection and continues to offer variety, good detail, at reasonable prices. The list of different locos from Bachmann in the last 20 years is pretty long and varied, and covers a wide variety of roads and interests.

BLI is one extreem or the other, big, famous, unique stuff is well detailed and road specific, but they can’t even change a trailing truck or move a headlight to make a 2-8-2 or 4-6-2 more correct. What a step down for them…

Look, I like all this new high detail or product as much as anyone, I buy my share, but I don’t need every piece on the layout to be that way, I’m a big picture guy. I was once a rivet counter, gave it up to have fun…and I like my 1950’s Varney and Athearn stuff.

Yes Paul there is lots of product out there, but I miss stuff being “in stock”. Clearly I had access to, and ran a better hobby shop than what you had back in the day. I hate the ebay/train show “hunt”. There may have been less variety, but the gaps in availability of that stuff was months, not years…

I still don’t buy into the “trains of our youth” idea. I know too many 60 year olds who model current stuff and too many 30 somthings who model the 50’s. And most of my friends are like me, they model somthing before they were born. The one survey I mentioned was very recent, but admittedly was a small sample…

Got to go,

Sheldon

38

ATSF Guy; CGW121:

Alternative facts. Dimensionally almost identical. Details differed. Look it up.

T&P 2-10-4 655-59 built by Lima in 1929: 28x30 cyl.; 63" dri., 255# b.p.; 100 s.f. grate area; 98,500# t.e.; 307,000# wt. on dri.; 457,500# tot. eng. wt.; 3.63 F. of. A. (other T&P 2-10-4 orders differed slightly)

CGW 2-10-4 850-864 built by Lima in 1930: 29x32 cyl.; 63’ dri.; 255# b.p.; 100 s.f. grate area; 97,900# t.e.; 304,000# wt. on dri.; 461,000# tot. eng. wt.; 3.59 F. of A.

Compare these with the Santa Fe 2-10-4’s:

Number 5000 built by Baldwin 1930: 30x34 cyl.; 69" dri.; 300# b.p.; 121.5 s.f. grate area; 93,000# t.e.; 372,000# wt. on dri.; 502,600# tot. eng. wt.; 4.0 F of A.

5001 Class built by Baldwin 1937: 30x34 cyl.; 74" dri.; 310# b.p.; 121.5 s.f. grate area; 93000# t.e.; 371,680# wt. on dri.; 545,260# tot. eng. wt.; 4.0 F of A.

5011 Class built by Baldwin 1944: 30x34 cyl.; 74" dri.; 310# b.p.; 121.5 s.f. grate area; 93,000# t.e.; 380,300# wt. on dri.; 538,000# tot. eng. wt.; 4.09 F of A.

Like it or not, the CGW was not a big road with a sufficient following to justify tooling for a big consumer demand. That’s reality. But if you really want a CGW 2-10-4, it’s possible to get one with the T&P as a starting point. If the project isn’t sufficiently important to you to justify the effort, you’ll have to do without. Dr. Wayne and Casey have proven that it’s possible. If you prefer to base your model conversion on the much larger Santa Fe engine, and think you can pull it off, you can start with a Bachmann. Your choice.

Tom

P.S.

Sources: Lima, The History, by Hirsimaki, Hundman Publishing, 1986; and Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail, by Worley, Southwest Railroad Historical Society, 1965.

39

Let’s not turn this into another “oh no the hobby is getting so expensive” thread, or I’ll have to merge it.

40

Respectfully, who said anything about the cost of the hobby?

Except for a few comments about the financial challenges facing the manufacturers, I don’t recall any comments in this thread about the cost of the hobby, or even the cost of steam loco models?

Yes, I will continue to complain about the lack of product “on the shelf”, but not about the cost of that product.

In fact, because of my background and experiance in the industry, I believe the current product costs truely represent the cost to produce plus a fair and reasonable profit.

Personally I look at prices and say yes or no as it applies to me, but understand why prices are what they are.

Sheldon