So we’ll see how the agreement plays out over time. As they say “It ain’t over until the fat lady sings.” - quote from yours truly on the K-Line, Lionel settlement thread
Well kids, just when you thought the “Prairie Wind” had settled, that things might calm down… a lone voice cuts through the still of the uneasy silence. And that voice is over on the CoilCouplers web site… let’s tune in shall we? Granted, the CoilCouplers site is hardly CNN, but since news media like to lead a story with a teaser, here’s the teaser followed by the link to the whole story.
As a result of K-Line’s misleading press release, posted on the OGR Three Rail Mainline, the defendants and plaintiff have been ordered back to the court on this coming Monday. It is CCA’s opinion that that is not a good sign for K-Line. Stay tuned.
Sitting on the outside looking in, ya just gotta love this stuff! The mystery, the intrigue, the blunders heaped upon blunders, and the real life examples of foot-in-mouth disease. A continuous soap opera, at best, and a comedy of errors, at worst.
Usually, when a settlement in a lawsuit is reached, BOTH parties are restricted in what they can reveal about the terms of the settlement. In fact, in many or most cases, the terms of the settlement are permanently sealed, and both parties are enjoined from releasing much specific information, aside from a terse announcement of the settlement being reached and their desire to move on and serve their loyal customers and . . . blah, blah, blah.
But in their haste to paint the best face possible on this most recent little tiff between toy train manufacturers, both parties likely stepped over the line in their press releases and said more than they were supposed to say, or were allowed to say by the court. BOTH releases are full of puffery and bravado, and both were probably prepared in too much haste. So now it’s all coming back–if the report from Clyde Coil is to be believed–to bite one or both of them in their respective butts.
I have no reason to doubt that Clyde Coil is well-connected with Lionel LLC, so it’s quite likely that something is going on here. Just exactly what that “something” is could (and probably will) be a matter of endless conjecture, but my advice would be to just sit back and enjoy the show. After all, we’re all just spectators in this production and, thankfully, not included in the cast of characters.
Things are normally pretty quiet in the little town of Greendale, especially on a Sunday. Folks head to church… everyone knows everyone so there are no surprises. But over at the Coil Couplers site, things are not as quiet as usual for a Sunday.
On top of the story referenced above by D. Railer, Clyde Coil now has written a piece. Not sure what it will all mean in the end, but one thing is certain… all the comments here about how happy everyone was that the Lionel / K-Line suit was settled quickly apparently may be very short lived.
They claim Pierson was working for K-Line. But using Lionel’s hardrive? Yea right.
Actually one version of the story is Pierson was only a part time Lionel employee and the computers were part of his “compensation package”. A settlemnent of up to 700K legal fees and 5% of K-line sales of disputed merchandise was cheaper than a prolonged court battle.
There is an update on the Clyde Coil site, wherein Clyde presents the full text of the court’s ruling. Some folks may find it helpful in seeing beyond the spin of both previous press releases.
Some folks may find it helpful in seeing beyond the spin of both previous press releases.
Yeah, but some folks might find it more helpful if Lionel stopped claiming what leadership they have and started putting the stuff in the product. So far all they’ve given people is a lotta hype and an on/off switch for their flakey speed control.
Odyssey speed control works fine. It’s not as finely tuned as MTH’s PS2 speed control, and it was a pain in the neck to operate in conventional mode, which is why it needs the on-off switch. For those operating in command, it’s quite adequate. And as far as leadership TMCC is still a much easier to install, use and trouble shoot system with greater reliability than anyone else’s system, and was around for six years before their competitor introduced anything. Anyhow it’s a little disingenuous for those who do not use speed control or command control to scold a company about the rate of technologic innovation. And it’s disingenuous for those who are not Lionel customers to complain about anything Lionel makes or doesn’t make.
What I object to is Lionel emulating the MTH business model of resorting to litigation for everything, particularly for dealing with issues of market share and innovation. They may have had some cause here, but this business model is disastrous in a small cottage industry, IMO. MTH is the pioneer and the paragon in this business model, and this crazy industry wide model of fratricidal litigiousness and legal threats has got to stop if the industry is going to survive. That’s one reason the K-Line and Lionel settlement required them to promise to try to settle things without going to court in the future.
I have to disagree with this statement. It is not adequate. Speed between various engines can vary greatly. Aboslute speed is non existant. I like Lionel but the Odyssey system needs a major upgrade.
“And it’s disingenuous for those who are not Lionel customers to complain about anything Lionel makes or doesn’t make.”
However, it is not disingenuous to state that a sewer stinks without ever smelling one.[;)]
“However, it is not disingenuous to state that a sewer stinks without ever smelling one”
On the other hand, it is disingenuous, if not plain old dishonest to state that a sewer stinks when Lionel makes it, but it smells as sweet as Chanel No. 5 when someone else makes it ;).
Who cares about stinky sewers, Lionel is claiming they own all these improvements but they ain’t putting it in their trains… You say it’s yours, you say it’s great… Show me… Tell me where I can buy one… A lotta Claims but no Trains
Lionel now owns these improvements, but they only recently acquired them through legal action. These improvements, in particular the speed control, were developed for K-Line by Bob Grubba and Marty Pierson. Assuming Lionel has access to this improvement, which isn’t clear, and assuming they choose to implement it, it would take some time to integrate the K-Line technology into Lionel products.
In many industries, including this one, rushing things into production has led to less than optimal results.
I suppose this doesn’t really apply to me. I was a former Lionel customer before I even knew of the existence of MTH, and I thought K-Line made smoke tablets. The reason I was a former customer was the appalling lack of quality control and the infuriating attitude toward dissatisfied customers. After I got back into the hobby courtesy of Mike, I went back and refurbished all the junk that Lionel sold me during their arrogant years; believe it or not, it works pretty well. I made some changes, and I repaired things that were assembled wrong. I would have a great deal different attitude toward Lionel if their quality control had taken care of these issues before they sold me this junk at premium prices. Who knows, if they fix their marketing paradigm like it looks like they intend to, in another forty or fifty years I may start buying Lionel again.
Doug, fair enough. But it would be bizarre if someone with your buying habits was ranting and raving about Lionel not introducing second generation speed control, wouldn’t it?
So my comments really aren’t directed to those like you who don’t buy Lionel because they like something else better or don’t buy Lionel for some other reason, but who also don’t rant and rave about Lionel.
Would you like to hear me rant about MTH not supporting first generation speed control? I have a DRG 4-6-2 Pacific Steamer that I bought without PS1 on the assurance from the hobby shop that it was upgradable. Well, guess what? Not only is the upgrade kit not available, but the basic engine is not compatible with PS2. Don’t bother to tell me how to fix it, I cursed for a while, visited a local hobby shop that just happened to have an overstock remainder (cheap) and bought another one, this one with PS1. Neither company fixed my problem, but the lady in customer service at MTH was sympathetic. Lionel pretty much told me to go blow. So I went.
Now, if you want to discuss why the PS1 upgrade was not available, I suppose the issue of trade secrets and litigation will come up. She (the lady in customer service) referred me to whoever it was that built the original board, and they were worse than Lionel. But I am told that they have an excuse.
“It’s high time to get on with the fun of electric trains and tell the story behind TMCC2 development and rollout.” - D.Railer from latest Hi-Rail Times story
When I posted this thread, I did find some humor in how many were heralding the K-Line press release that Lionel and K-Line would jointly share technology. I found this interesting as K-Line and Lionel weren’t even remotely on the same page as far as their statements about the “settlement” went.
Within hours of the first Lionel settlement statement, Maury Klein was telling CTT that the Lionel statement was wrong. From my view, it is highly unlikely that 2 companies can get along on a product level, if they can’t even agree on what they have agreed to.
What I do find somewhat ironic about all this is that aside from railroad logo licensing, all of the legal problems we’ve seen recently are all over high end, high tech elements of the hobby. Just as ironic that the digital and computer advancements have made the hobby more fun for some (and even helped prod some back into 3-rail trains), the same high tech advancements in trains have also divided the hobby as possibly never seen before.
As witnessed above, modelers can’t even agree about the companies or which system is better. The technology has made the trains more expensive. Even major retailers such as Train Express say the hobby is financially out of reach for far too many. And the companies are battling each other in both retail and legal venues for dominancy in a shrinking demographic…
makes no sense to me. [banghead]
It’s high time to get on with the fun of electric trains. I agree with this much of the above quote from D. Railer. I’m certain I have as much fun with my non-scale, non-digital control, heavily-altered, DC current controlled 027 trains. I have NEVER had to send one away for any repair. My control system is ingenious in its simplicity: place hand on transformer and turn dial! [8] Amazing… the trains
