Does anyone else find the tone of Tony Koester’s article on On30, “Attracting a Crowd” (March MR, pp. 94-95) completely inappropriate? His theme–On30 is ridiculously inaccurate, but if it attracts a bunch of aging numskulls into the hobby, fine–is expressed with a snivelling negativism reminiscent of a snotty tenth-grader. It’s especially surprising given that Kalmbach distributes Bob Brown’s superb Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette, which has extensive On30 coverage including some highly prototypical models and layouts. I’d remind Koester that what he says about narrow gauge–“Most of us don’t model [it], but many of us think [it’s] fascinating nonetheless,” could equally be applied to his own obsessions, prototype modeling and “realistic operations”–in fact I’d say there are far fewer people interested in the latter than narrow gauge. MR is normally a uniformly positive promoter of the hobby so this begrudging acceptance is very odd. I’d say that Koester was simply the wrong staffer to write about it.
I’m not sure what you mean by this, NG&SL Gazette is published by Benchmark Publications out in California, I’m not aware that Kalmbach is involved in it??
I just got the new MR so haven’t read the Tony’s column yet, but it sounds like he’s raising a point I’ve raised in the past about On30. The problem is that especially early on a lot of On30 equipment was based on 3’ gauge railroads like the Rio Grande. I’ve wondered if some newbies didn’t put a lot of time and money into On30 thinking they were modelling “just like the real thing” only to find out they were in fact using a kinda-close hybrid instead.
Now there were 30" railroads in the US, but they were very small - 100 mi. of total trackage combined IIRC. If someone wants to model them, great. Or, if someone wants to model 3’ or Maine 2’ gauge and is OK with using a “close enough” 30" gauge, that’s great too. My worry is the people who don’t realize what they’re doing until they find out they’ve gone down a path they’d rather not have followed.
My understanding is that Kalmbach distributes NG&SLG to hobby shops and other retail outlets. It’s correct that Bob Brown’s Benchmark is the publisher.
The thing one has to know is that On3 rolling stock does not look right on On30 just because it has On30 trucks. The proportions are wrong. On30 is right between On3 and On2, therefore the equipment must be inthe middle of the two. If you have seen or been on two foot equipment it is much smaller that three foot stuff. Bachmann pretty much got that right with its On30 models. I cant afford On3 and do not have the money Tony has. My feelings about him having met him at a couple of conventions are mine and will not be seen here . I dont think this should become a personal mud slinging thing.
Dave
'and a rabid frenzy of On30er’s will now post venom!!! Galdurn, he used that epithet ---------------On2-1/2, may he burn in @#%$%^^&&*!!!
[soapbox]
Harold[:D][:D]
I modeled narrow gauge (HOn3) in the early '90s. This was before the big rush to On30. I used to subscribe to NG&SLG for many years after I switched to HO standard. It wasn’t until my 2002 switch to N scale that I stopped. I still browse it now and again at the LHS.
A good number of the models in NG&SLG are not as realistic as you would first think. Oh, sure, they’re detailed and all that; the wood looks like it’s rotting and the metal looks like it’s rusting. But too many of the models in NG&SLG are looking “cutesy.” How many steam donkeys, class A climaxes, and diesel critters were there? Some, but not as many as NG&SLG would have you think. Narrow gauge also includes hulking 2-8-2s hauling strings of steel hoppers on the EBT or double-headed K37s with pipe loads stretching around the Colorado/New Mexico mountains. It’s not all yellow diesel critters and sway-backed toolcars. Too many neo-Malcom-Furlows for my tastes.
Part of why I stopped getting NG&SLG is this trend toward the “cutesy” caricatures. In some cases, On30 has been suffering from the “cutesy” factor as well. Now, many people enjoy this kind of model railroading. I’m not bashing it. But calling it “highly prototypical” is not exactly correct either. To me, it seemed that for each highly prototypical layout or loco project in NG&SLG, there were 2 fantasy layouts, dioramas, or projects. I miss Harry Brunk’s Up Clear Creek series.
If I went back into narrow gauge, I probably would go On30. I might not be bothered by the 6" difference. But then again, maybe I might. But the trend in model railroading seems to be toward a higher degree of realism in nearly every aspect, so that 6" difference is bound to bother more people now than perhaps 10-20 years ago. And to a prototype hound l
FE:
Mr. Koester has experimented with narrow gauge. (The narcotics terminology is strangely appropriate here, I think, or perhaps we could say he has survived bouts of the illness.) I’m not sure if he’s into it now. Of course, I haven’t read the editorial yet, so I’ll see if my impression changes.
In this hobby we are often seeking a mixture of Fun and Serious. Some of us claim that Serious is our Fun, and some of us take nothing Seriously but Fun. Still others segregate both qualities into separate mental compartments, and most of us really don’t worry about that stuff.
Now, TK strikes me as somebody who wants to have more Fun than his Serious side allows him. At least that’s what I get from his editorials at RMC and from ToT. So sometimes he has had this Solemn Hobby, expressed by the Midland Road, and his Guilty-Pleasur
While On30 might not be perfectly in scale I find it intresting enough that I’m tempted. HO has been the scale of choice for about 50 years now. On30 appears that it would be a kind of fun and whimsey way into model railroading.
Should I get into On30 it would be a freelanced narrow gauge set in the 1930’s or so and based on the Illwaco Railroad and Navigation Company’s 36 inch gauge line.
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When I read the article, I didn’t really find it to be so inflammatory. I found it interesting. I even thought about how cool it would be to visit an on30 layout, even though I model in n-scale.
uh…maybe that means I’m an “aging numskull”.
My reading of that column was that he was trying to be accepting of other approaches to model railroading than his own. Whether or not he succeeds is for the reader to decide.
In some ways this is a funny hobby because there is no really accepted way to pursue it. Some guys are so prototypical they should be punching a time clock and others are so whimsical they could be working on Disney cartoons. On the flip side, the strength of the hobby is that there are so many options.
On30 is doing well for two reaons. One is because Bachmann has provided strong support particularly in distribution - most hobby stores carry it. The second is that On30, like S is the right size for model trains - in fact the sizes are so close you can (and some folks do) modify equipment from one to the other. The trains are big enough to easily handle and see, yet small enough to have layout in a modest space.
Maybe Tony’s just envious because his HO trains are so small.[(-D]
Enjoy
Paul
Who says On30 is inaccurate?
All you have to do is pick a 762mm gauge prototype - of which there are plenty, if you know where to look. Granted that the one I like best ran cute little teakettle tank steamers until it replaced them with 4-wheel diesel ‘critters’ (and one 8-wheel diesel that looked like the result of a double rear end collision of two Volksvans,) there were others that ran eight-coupled steam and large cars. Not to mention the EMU operations like the one Mark Newton won Spacemouse’s last layout competition with.
If you want to model Japanese prototype in HOe, you can even get it ready-to-run. Bring your wallet ($$$).
Granted that accurately modeling any 762mm gauge prototype will require a lot of scratchbuilding and creative kitbashing. Never say it can’t be done.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with two 762mm gauge feeder lines)
The nice thing about modeling narrow gauge is that there is a lot of freedom of expression and tolerance when it comes to prototype vs freelancing (Viva Malcolm Furlow!). I subscribe to the NGSL and find many excellent examples of modeling that is prototype, freelance and everything in between without people bashing each other’s choice. There are many models, layouts, and dioramas that are detailed to the nth degree - some prototypical some not. Many of us either protolance or freelance plausible models and never claim (nor care) they are bonafide exact models of a specific prototype. We actually do practice one prototypical aspect of narrow gauge railroads in that we improvise a lot and use a lot of material at hand to make plausable models. As far as On30 is concerned, the 30 inch gauge allows one to model logging, two footers, or some three footers in O scale while using HO track geometry and other components - and a lot of HO equipment eg. #5 couplers, wheel widths, rail height is just right for On30. To us, the discrepency of the gauge is not important. For those who want to model strict protptypical equipment there is On3 and On2 - and you better have a FAT wallet. The adherants to strict prototype modeling would really flip out over Large Scale and Gn15 but the NGSL covers these scales and gauges without bias - and these scales are a lot of FUN to work with.
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Some on the forum will remember John Kneiling, who wrote a regular column in Trains for many years under the title “The Professional Iconoclast”. The term iconoclast means “one who attacks and seeks to overthrow popular or traditional ideas or institutions” (Websters II New Riverside University Dictionary). As I remember it (I was fairly young at the time) Mr. Kneiling would point out some aspect of prototype railroading that he found particularly ridiculous, then explain how the railroads could do it better. His ideas for how “popular or traditional ideas or institutions” should be “overthrown” raised a lot of hackles among the magazines readers, and a lot of hate mail toward Mr. Kneiling was published in the letters to the editor column. But, expressing a critical opinion of the traditional way of railroading, and stimulating discussion, was exactly what Trains paid Mr. Kneiling to do, and he did a good job of it.
I think that Tony Koester fills a similar role at Model Railroader today. Maybe he doesn’t “attack” the traditional way of doing things, but he certaily tries to help us look at things a little differently. And, whether we agree or disagree with him, in the end, I think the hobby ultimately benefits from the discussion and introspection that follows when he expresses his opinion.
Tom
I have modeled the narow gauges for a long time and am a longtime subscriber to the SL&NGG. I have also dabbled in On30. I have read Tony’s editorial and I think you are reading way way too much into it. I read it as very complimentary to On30. On30 is great and makes for great modeling, it is never going to be perfect for those wanting to model the Denver & Rio Grande Western in exact detail as the prototypes are too big and the 6 inch discrepancy is too obvious. How ever for a whole bunch of other prototypes and for freelancing, it is ver y good. He makes the obvious point that it is very appealing to those who have left the hobby when young and now may be attracted to it’s obvious heft and appeal. I saw absolutely nothing negative in his comments. - Nevin
I do not think TK’s theme was that On30 is “ridiculously inaccurate”. Maybe I am wrong but, I think his theme was to make a case for the 6 inch difference. Certainly, Frary and Hayden made this case. I read this as a well thought out and well balanced editorial?
Peter Smith, Memphis
I think what he, Koester, is saying is pretty obvious and unobjectionable: that the number of people who would model true On3 – um, is that supposed to be On36? – or On2 (On24?) are a relatively small number of dedicated craftsmen but now you can and do have many quarter inch scale narrow gauge types who if they want can also be pure ready to run types and fairly casual hobbyists and maybe not hobbyists at all. That is a sea change in O scale, in narrow gauge, and in the hobby.
When you consider that the Bachmann models began more or less as something to accompany those Christmas village toy buildings that some people collect, it has come a long way --the models are really nice, and probably nicer than they have to be for many people who buy them. There are true scale model railroaders who are in On30 but also folks who otherwise would be buying crap HO train sets and setting them up at Christmas. I really think that is his only point: that there is now a really nice line of good quality trains for that market. The fact that the gauge is off by 6" one way or the other is something that cannot be ignored but does not seem a driving force.
Now if I was going into On30 (sorry years of thinking of HOn2 1/2 are ingrained) I’d be tempted to model a quarry railroad that was a true 30" gauge line, only because, yeah, the gauge discrepency bothers me.
Dave Nelson
Only on the Internet would someone who admittedly has not read the article feel qualified to dump on the author. If you can find time in your busy schedule of commenting on things about which you don’t know, read the article and you’ll see it’s positive on On30. Only somebody incredibly thin skinned or looking to pick a fight would take the position that the original poster did.
You can feel free to remove the 1:1 foot from your mouth anytime, Sport.